A $7.5 Million Lie: PCH Sweepstakes Scam Targets Veteran

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[00:00:02] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Manny Guerrero:  I got a call from a man and he says, uh, “Did you ever play Publisher's Clearinghouse?” And I says, “Yes, I did for about a year. “Well,” he says, um. “They have a check for you for seven and a half million dollars.”

[00:00:22] Manny Guerrero:  You work all your life to save your money, your retirement is your lifeline. And when things like this happen you don't know that you're talking to a scammer.

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[00:00:41] Bob: Welcome back to the perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan. I'll never tire of hearing from veterans about the amazing acts of heroism they witnessed or they took part in while defending our way of life. Today's special guest, Manny Guerrero, certainly has his share of stories, and that's why, well, it's all the more infuriating to hear about what Manny went through when after 62 years of marriage, he turned to games just to help ease the pain of his lonely heart. But Manny's story has a hopeful ending too. So, stick around to be inspired twice by today's episode.

[00:01:24] Bob: You've had, you've had some experience working with airplanes, haven't you?

[00:01:28] Manny Guerrero: Oh, yeah.

[00:01:29] Bob: Tell me, tell me what you did.

[00:01:30] Manny Guerrero: Well, uh, in 1953 I went to school for aircraft school. I went for the B 47 bomber, the first, uh, slip back wing aircraft that America had.

[00:01:41] Bob: And, and so you ended up working on airplanes for a long time, right?

[00:01:44] Manny Guerrero: Oh, yeah, but I became a supervisor pretty fast.

[00:01:48] Bob: Ah. How, how long were you in the Air Force?

[00:01:49] Manny Guerrero: 22 years.

[00:01:50] Bob: 22 years. That's a, that's a long time. Thank you for all that service. And, and where were you stationed most of that time?

[00:01:58] Manny Guerrero: Well, I was stationed at McDill Field, Tampa, Florida.

[00:02:01] Bob: But you spent time in, in Europe too, right?

[00:02:03] Manny Guerrero: Yes, I did.

[00:02:04] Bob: Where were you there?

[00:02:04] Manny Guerrero: I was at Brize Norton, England.

[00:02:09] Bob: And so was his daughter, Debbie Splain. She was stationed in Europe too.

[00:02:16] Bob: And Debbie is, is this right? You, you were born when the family was in, in England, is that right?

[00:02:21] Debbie Splane: I should have been born there, but I was born in Lake Charles, Louisiana right before, uh, they were due, uh, transferred to England. So I was just like newborn when we flew over to England.

[00:02:32] Bob: Oh my God. Wow. Your poor mother.

[00:02:34] Debbie Splane: Yeah. Yes.

[00:02:36] Bob: Wow.

[00:02:38] Bob: Back to Manny's service. He joined during the Cold War, trained during the Korean War and served in Vietnam. Basic training was intense.

[00:02:50] Manny Guerrero: Yeah. The training instructor teaching you about war and so and so forth, would say, I want you to learn it here and understand it and let it go through your mind, because if you don't learn it here, you're gonna die over there.

[00:03:08] Bob: But I'm sure as a 17-year-old that got your attention right.

[00:03:11] Manny Guerrero: Oh yeah, definitely

[00:03:13] Bob: Long since retired, Manny lives in Las Vegas now, and he's a free spirit. Debbie says.

[00:03:20] Debbie Splane: He drives around in his little Porsche and he, he, uh, does his own grocery shopping. He does his own, uh, laundry. He keeps his own house. He does everything. And, you know, at 90, I'm so impressed and I, I hope to have that kind of a life.

[00:03:36] Bob: Still, Manny's heart is still hurting since he lost his wife several years ago.

[00:03:42] Bob: Uh, she passed away just a few years ago. Right. And that was really hard on you.

[00:03:46] Manny Guerrero: Yeah. October, 2018.

[00:03:48] Bob: I understand that you used to visit her grave almost every day or every week, and you..

[00:03:52] Manny Guerrero: Oh yeah.

[00:03:52] Bob: You brought flowers. It was, yeah.

[00:03:54] Manny Guerrero: Oh yeah.

[00:03:54] Bob: How long were you married?

[00:03:55] Manny Guerrero: 62 years.

[00:03:56] Bob: 62 years. That's amazing. What a beautiful relationship.

[00:04:01] Bob: It was even harder when the loss was fresh. And Manny did anything he could do to pass the time, including playing games.

[00:04:11] Manny Guerrero: Yep. Well, that, that was the only thing that was keeping me going, for me, thinking about my wife all this time and, uh, these games that I was playing with Publishers Clearing House was, uh, helping me, keeping me away from that.

[00:04:25] Bob: That makes sense to me. You just gotta pass the time, right? And it may help make you feel better at least.

[00:04:30] Manny Guerrero: Yep. Yep.

[00:04:30] Bob: Yeah.

[00:04:31] Manny Guerrero: Yep.

[00:04:33] Bob: Manny also stayed active in veterans causes, and about two years ago, he signed up for an honor flight. If you've never heard of them, well, another guest, Joe Vigil, is here to explain. Joe is a reporter at K-V-V-U-T-V in Las Vegas.

[00:04:50] Joe Vigil: Honor flight is a nonprofit. They have chapters all around the country and they take veterans to Washington, DC and surrounding area to visit their war memorials, and there's no charge to them. The airfare is covered, meals are covered, everything is covered, and they, it's a way to honor them. Thank you for your service. And we, the station went on an honor flight. I did it in Alaska as well. We went on a trip there a while ago when I was there, and then I had suggested we do it here. And so we ended up doing it and the people really liked it and we went again. I thought we'd maybe go once and that would be it, but then we went again and we, we may go again in April. But it's a great experience for these veterans. They get to go to see their war memorials, and we're happy to be part of making all that happen and covering it because we go with them. So we're there from the moment they take off until the moment they land and everything in between.

[00:05:52] Bob: And, and so somebody like Manny who served, he served in Vietnam when, right? And so when he goes to see the Vietnam Veteran Memorial, what, what does that mean to somebody like Manny?

[00:06:03] Joe Vigil: Oh, it means different things. For some, I've seen some people find it very difficult. To even come up to walk up to the Vietnam memorial wall because of the memories. For many people, this is their first time seeing the wall and it's tough, very tough for some people. Just the apprehension and then other people when and then to see all the names for anyone who's seen it, the names just go on and on. It's just, wow. It's just stunning to see all those people. Other people, they feel like when they go there that maybe ghosts have been scared away from them. They've been hanging onto these feelings for a long time and they feel, I dunno if closure is the right word, but a sense that I went there, I said goodbye to certain people. We've seen that happen. So it's really a mix of what you're gonna see when people go there.

[00:06:59] Bob: In fact, Joe met Manny at a pancake breakfast that was an honor flight fundraiser about two years ago. Manny made quite an impression.

[00:07:08] Joe Vigil: I did talk to him about some of his experiences in Vietnam and he talked to me about that. He said like the first day he was there, he was introduced to some people and they said, Hey, why don't you go down to the lounge here and hang out, and so forth. And the lounge got bombed. Um, and it blew a hole in the side of, the wall of where they were. And it was just chaos and just. Recall him saying, “Yeah, that was my first day in Vietnam.” I'm like, oh my gosh.

[00:07:37] Bob: Wow.

[00:07:37] Joe Vigil: Yeah.

[00:07:39] Bob: But there was another story Manny told Joe that really stuck with him.

[00:07:44] Joe Vigil: They would go up in the planes and they were doing some bombing runs and he, he said some people would come to him afraid and basically crying that I don't, I'm not gonna make it back from this one. I don't want to go. And so he would just jump in on occasion and just go himself if they were afraid that they weren't gonna make it back. Can you believe that? That's just amazing. So that's why we honor these people with honor flights.

[00:08:13] Bob: And that's why Joe was sure to give Manny and his daughter Debbie, a business card at that pancake breakfast. As a journalist, you never know where a good story might come from. More on that in a moment. So Manny's Honor flight goes well. He has an amazing time, and only a couple of days after he comes home, he gets a phone call that changes his life. But not in the way he thinks.

[00:08:39] Manny Guerrero: Well, um, the honor flight outta Las Vegas sent me to, uh, Washington DC to the war memorials for me to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Uknown Soldier. I came back three days later, I got a call from a man and, uh, he says, “Are you Manuel Guerrero?” And I said, “Yes, I am.” He says, uh, “Did you ever play Publisher's Clearinghouse?” And I says, “Yes, I did for about a year, maybe a little over a year.” And uh, he says, “Well,” he says, um. “They have a check for you for seven and a half million dollars.”

[00:09:22] Bob: Seven and a half million dollars. Wow.

[00:09:25] Bob: A check for $7.5 million and a new car? Wow. Immediately, Manny has visions of the prize patrol showing up at his home with one of those huge checks.

[00:09:38] Manny Guerrero: And so, uh, I said, “Wow, can't believe it.” It got me excited. So anyway, he says, uh, “The problem is, uh. New York Federal Reserves.”

[00:09:50] Bob: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:51] Manny Guerrero: He says, and I can't take it out.

[00:09:53] Bob: In order to get the winnings released from the Federal Reserve, Manny will have to write a check for $26,000 for fees and taxes.

[00:10:03] Manny Guerrero: Yeah. You know, um, they needed money for, they, they told me to write him, write 'em a check to somewhere in, in New York. In a construction company, and I didn't understand that, but uh, because I was thinking about the money, I went ahead and wrote the check.

[00:10:23] Bob: But when that check is cashed, Manny doesn't get the money. Instead, he gets another phone call asking for another check for more fees. Then he's asked to wire a payment for another fee, $10,000 or $40,000 more? It keeps on going.

[00:10:42] Bob: And, and had you ever wired money before?

[00:10:45] Manny Guerrero: Nope.

[00:10:45] Bob: So how, how did they tell you to do that?

[00:10:47] Manny Guerrero: They, they gave me instructions and I done it.

[00:10:51] Bob: It keeps on going in part because Manny is hoping he'll have something to leave his children.

[00:10:57] Debbie Splane: My father was trying to keep it quiet so he could give us kids money. And, and you know, he, he, he just wanted to give us a gift and I said, dad, we all work. We're we're okay.

[00:11:10] Bob: Six months go by, and Manny has sent more than $100,000. Still hoping to get that seven and a half million dollars payout and the car. But right about then, Debbie gets a phone call.

[00:11:25] Debbie Splane: I did. Yeah. It was a detective, I think her name was Becky, and she said, this isn't a joke. She said, I have been looking for you because we believe your father has been a victim of fraud. And I. I didn't believe her. I really didn't believe her.

[00:11:41] Bob: Well, what is it like to get a, a voice message like that?

[00:11:44] Debbie Splane: Uh, it was a little frightening because that just came outta nowhere. This is a detective calling from Los Angeles and I'm my dad's in Nevada, and I'm like, wait. This just can't be right. And so I ended up looking her up at the station, wherever she was. Um, I don't remember the name of it, but somewhere in LA and it's legit. So I call her back and she said, this isn't a joke. She goes, really, I'm just trying to protect your family. And she told me what was going on.

[00:12:12] Bob: The agent is investigating an ongoing sweepstakes crime and found Manny's name attached to several payments.

[00:12:19] Debbie Splane: That phone call was a little bit, scary because, you know, I don't receive phone calls like that every day, but I actually had thought something happened to my father when she said she's Detective Becky, that, you know, something, uh, was wrong because my father was, uh, sending money and wiring money, not only checks, but wiring money to this fraudulent company in, uh, I think they were in New Jersey. Somewhere back east.

[00:12:50] Bob: Debbie hangs up with the agent and gets in touch with her dad right away.

[00:12:54] Debbie Splane: So I call my father and talk with him about it, and he said that it was for real. I said, dad, Publishers Clearing House is not going to do this to you, but they've taken all your money. And you know, I don't, I don't know if you're going to be able to get it back, but that's, that's what's happening to you right now.

[00:13:13] Bob: It isn't easy to call her dad with that news.

[00:13:17] Debbie Splane: When I told him that this was fraudulent, he didn't believe me at first.

[00:13:21] Bob: Sure, sure.

[00:13:21] Debbie Splane: And then once I told him, you know, I, I would not call you without investigating that this was true with a detective, you know, following this guy or whoever this company is. So, um, it was hard for him to believe it as well as me, you know, getting that phone call, that it was true.

[00:13:41] Bob: Manny isn't sure what to think at first. Well, well, how did it feel to get that call from your daughter?

[00:13:46] Manny Guerrero: Oh, well, well, when she first told me about it, I, it was hard to, it was hard to believe. I, I believe that I was gonna get that money and, uh, that why that was a problem.

[00:13:59] Bob: Yeah. And, and, you know, but I, I guess part of what's going on in your mind is that you had kept it a secret from, from them, right? From your kids?

[00:14:06] Manny Guerrero: Yeah.

[00:14:06] Bob: And, and so I guess you're wondering, well, how, how did Debbie find out about this? Um, right?

[00:14:11] Manny Guerrero: Yeah, she told me, she told me that the detectives, uh, called her.

[00:14:15] Bob: So after Debbie breaks the news to Manny, he talks to the FBI agent himself and realizes he's probably never going to see his money again.

[00:14:25] Manny Guerrero: And then they, they called me and talked to me and asked me questions, you know.

[00:14:30] Bob: And by the time you hung up with that phone call, you were convinced this was a scam, right?

[00:14:33] Manny Guerrero: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, after the detective told me, yeah, I did. I believed it.

[00:14:39] Bob: Meanwhile, Debbie goes right online and books airplane tickets from her home in LA to Las Vegas so she can be with her dad.

[00:14:47] Debbie Splane: I flew out there immediately. As soon as I got that call, I booked a ticket out to Nevada to go, uh, take care of my father and rearrange his banking. Get on the account. My sister and I supposedly were on the same account with my father just to oversee, you know, make sure that none of this happened and the bank never called us.

[00:15:12] Bob: How, how long did this go on for Debbie?

[00:15:14] Debbie Splane: It was probably about six to eight months. Something like that. It took a while.

[00:15:20] Bob: And all, all that time he kept the secret from you?

[00:15:22] Debbie Splane: He, he, he kept the secret from me. Yeah. Yeah. It was a few months that that secret was kept.

[00:15:29] Bob: So Debbie arrives in Vegas and…

[00:15:33] Debbie Splane: He, I think he was humiliated that something like this could happen to him. He was, he was embarrassed and it was, you know, it was just, it was hard to see him like that because of what he had just gone through, you know, losing my mother and then, you know, I didn't realize that this kind of stuff would keep him company, you know, playing these Publishers Clearing House games.

[00:15:55] Bob: Manny, in the end, how much was stolen from you?

[00:15:57] Manny Guerrero: About 180,000.

[00:15:59] Bob: $180,000. Wow. Uh, money is different to everyone. To some people that would be more than their life's work. To some people that would be a trifle. Is was that a lot of money to you, Manny?

[00:16:11] Manny Guerrero: Yes, it was. It was my life savings.

[00:16:13] Bob: It was your life savings. Oh, dear God.

[00:16:16] Bob: And while Debbie works to straighten out dad's accounts, Manny has one more connection with the people who stole his money. Now, I must note, we don't recommend this step at all. Don't do this. But Manny got in touch with him and demanded they send a refund to him. And the criminals did send a refund check, kind of.

[00:16:38] Debbie Splane: My dad called them and they said, oh, Mr. Guerrero will send you your money back. That's okay. We'll send it back. So with these two blank checks, they sent my father, money, or they wrote out the checks for, I don't know, I can't remember how much it was now, but they did two separate transactions and my father called me and said he received the money back that he had given them. And I said, no, you didn't. It's, it's fraudulent. That has to be fraudulent. So he took it to the bank and of course it was fraudulent and it turned out to be this couple's checks that this detective had been looking for. And she told me that, she said, I have two checks that are, that we're looking for on this couple, and my dad had 'em.  

[00:17:21] Bob: The supposedly refund checks, yeah. Where did they come from?

[00:17:24] Debbie Splane: They came from an elderly couple, and I think they were from back east as well.

[00:17:28] Bob: But the, this is a sick elderly couple, right?

[00:17:30] Debbie Splane: Yes. This is a couple that had, supposedly the detective said that they had dementia.

[00:17:37] Bob: That's, that's a, that's just another horrible element of the story, right?

[00:17:41] Debbie Splane: It's sickening. It's sickening because I mean, to, to do that to a couple, I mean, for the number one, for the couple to send a blank check is, you know, they, they're just, they didn't know. No, not at all.

[00:17:54] Bob: Yeah, of course. And, and you, all your fates are, are tied up together.

[00:17:58] Bob: There will be no refund from the criminals or probably from anyone. Debbie and Manny report the crime to police, but law enforcement tells them there's little hope of getting his money back. The theft of $180,000 is devastating to Manny. His home has some badly needed repairs. He needs a new hot water heater, for example. But forget about those repairs. Manny is now worried about everyday expenses.

[00:18:25] Manny Guerrero: Well, I borrowed $25,000 from the Navy Federal Credit Union so I could pay my bills.

[00:18:32] Bob: Somehow the criminals knew Manny was vulnerable, and that's how they chose him. Debbie thinks.

[00:18:38] Debbie Splane: You know, he, like he said, he was trying to keep himself busy, to keep from, you know, thinking about what he had just gone through. And then, and he is vulnerable, you know, he is vulnerable after her, her passing. And you know, us kids don't live close by, we keep as much of an eye on him as we can, which is, you know, I call my father every single day, so I feel guilty. I feel like I should have known that this was happening to him. And I call him every single day if I miss a day, you know? I make up for it the next time. But I just, uh, I try not to miss any time with him because when he was in Vietnam and away from us kids when we were growing up, I missed all that time. So now that my mother's not here, she always talked a lot. So I never got a lot of talk time with my dad. Now I do. So I, I just, I enjoy talking to him every day. So it keeps us both going.

[00:19:30] Bob: I mean, it's, it's natural to feel guilty, but I'm sure you know, you shouldn't. In your head, you shouldn't feel guilty at all. These guys, again, are professionals, so.

[00:19:37] Debbie Splane: But, um, you know, even though I said I talked to him every day, I didn't, I, my father likes to sit and watch war movies and cowboy movies. That's his, that's his day, he loves that. So, um, I can always tell what he is doing, but he is, um, such a great-hearted human being. Give anybody the shirt off his back. But we're trying to reign him in on things like that. I mean, he gives money to the church, he gives money, you know, for cancer, because that's one of the things my mother had. And you know, for something like this to happen, there's a special place for my father. Really, I mean, it's just, it's, it's sad that people, as generous as he is, could be taken advantage of like this. But the scammers don't know it. They're desperate.

[00:20:25] Manny Guerrero: They don't care.

[00:20:27] Bob: Yeah. They don't, certainly don't care.  

[00:20:29] Manny Guerrero: When these guys are talking to you, it sounds so real. So true. And everybody told me the same thing. The detectives told me that too. And, uh, I should, I never, I never should have believed them.

[00:20:41] Bob: Well, but they're very good at what they do. That's what they do all day long.

[00:20:44] Manny Guerrero: Yeah. Yep.

[00:20:44] Bob: It's terrible. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:47] Manny Guerrero: I didn’t know they had this, a bunch of liars in this world. I can't believe it.

[00:20:52] Bob: Unfortunately. Well,

[00:20:53] Manny Guerrero: I didn't have that trouble in the service.

[00:20:55] Debbie Splane: Oh, I know.

[00:20:56] Bob: But also, you spent all this time in a world that was full of people who followed the rules and had a sense of honor and duty and trust. Right? And so that's what was abused here, and that's why this is such a painful thing to me.

[00:21:07] Manny Guerrero: Yep.

[00:21:09] Bob: Such a painful thing. And yet it's at this point that both Debbie and Manny. Think about honor and duty, the two of them decide they need to warn other people about what's going on.

[00:21:22] Debbie Splane: After what we went through, I thought this couldn't only happen to my father. It's happened to a lot of people and you don't really hear that much about it. And I'm thinking we need to get this out. And so I, uh, we had been on the flight, or dad and my brother, uh, did the honor flight, uh, to DC and Joe from Fox Five News was the, the host for, for the trip. And we got to know him and he really enjoyed my father and, uh, talking with him about Vietnam and all the other vets that were with them. But he and my father hit it off and Joe, uh, just became a, a good friend of the family and did two stories on my father, which was great. So, we tried to get the word out. I think he did one story with my dad and then I joined in on the next one. But it was just something that I think we need to make more noise about to the public and you know, try to get these scammers, off of, you know, our elderly or anybody, not just the elderly, but for everyone. Cause it happens every day and I don't know how many times a day it happens, but it's, it's just rampant.

[00:22:33] Bob: And that's when Debbie remembers that business card from the TV reporter, Joe Vigil, the one they met at that pancake breakfast. And they decide to call Joe and tell him about the $180,000 that was stolen.

[00:22:47] Joe Vigil: I gave her my number. And said, I think, Hey, if anything ever comes up or whatever, gimme a call. And then all of a sudden I heard back from her, I think a couple months later, and she started explaining me what happened. And I was just like, oh my gosh, you're serious. And I was just stunned. I couldn't believe it.

[00:23:05] Bob: Joe's editor immediately, green lights the story, so he runs over to Manny's home with a camera.

[00:23:11] Joe Vigil: He started showing me some of the paperwork and I was seeing these copies of checks. 22,000, 30,000, $40,000 checks and that really hit home. Cause when you look at a check, when you see it and you see that amount of money, you're like, all these things that I could buy with that, I'm talking not just, of course, a car or whatever, groceries for how many years could you buy groceries with 22, 40, $30,000? That's how I was looking at it. And it, Manny isn’t a rich man and I just. I'm looking at these checks going, oh my gosh. And it just, and he just kept giving them and then providing these wire transfers and I was, oh man, how could that happen? The amount of money was, it was the stunning part. And then just frustrating too because he's a Vietnam veteran, he served our country and here he is just being bilked out of his retirement.

[00:24:11Bob: So Joe airs the story about Manny's wife, his military record, his stolen money, even about the home repairs that Manny needs.

[NEWS CLIP]

[00:24:20] Joe Vigil: Well, scammers basically wiped out veteran Manny Guerrero's retirement savings, and he had to borrow $25,000 from his bank to pay his bills. So the vet and his daughter want you to hear their story so the same thing doesn't happen to a senior, you know.

[00:24:35] Bob: And that's when this infuriating terrible story. Well, it turns into something else.

[00:24:42] Joe Vigil: Some gentleman saw it and felt really bad about it and contacted me and said, Hey, I wanna replace his water heater. We just, we hate hearing this happen to a veteran and we want to do something.

[00:24:54] Bob: And so days later, Vinnie Rouche and a crew from Silver Star Plumbing show up at Manny's home.

[00:25:00] Joe Vigil: They replaced his water heater. And I remember that day seeing all the people out there when they came to fix it, there were like six, seven people out there and they're taking measurements and they're cutting the sheet rock out in the driveway, and they had the wa, the new water heater outside. They pulled this old water heater off, took that off, but the new one on and it was great. It's not recouping the substantial amount of money he lost, but it was just a nice gesture, and it was nice to see that somebody would do that.

[00:25:28] Debbie Splane: Bob, you know what the, the story is great because Vinny has his plumbing business and it's a little ways away from my father's house in, in Vegas. And he saw the news, uh, about what happened to my father, and he said it just touched his heart. And he got a crew together and he goes, we're, we're going to go take care of that man. He fought for this country and he wanted to help my dad. And I said, that is great. And my dad still wanted to pay for it, but then he said, no, we're going to do this for you. And they came over and reconstructed the whole thing, uh, the water heaters out in the garage. And um, the one that he had was just. Uh, kind of like on a tilt. So they came over just in time. But, uh, they did a great job. He brought over a great crew and, you know, I just couldn't thank them enough.

[00:26:22] Bob: These guys just came out and didn't charge any money and put a hot water heater in your house.

[00:26:26] Manny Guerrero: That's right.

[00:26:27] Bob: Wow. What did that feel like?

[00:26:28] Manny Guerrero: Really great.

[00:26:30] Bob: So that's one big worry Manny is free from, but he still got a long road ahead. Manny, how, how are you today about this? Are, are you, have you dug out of the, you paid back the debt? Where, where are things for you?

[00:26:43] Manny Guerrero: Well, um, I'm getting a little bit better because I'm saving my money again. You know, uh, the truth about this is, uh, that you work all your life to save your money because when you get old and you get retired, you don't get as much money as you were before, but your retirement is, is your lifeline. And, uh, when things like this happen and, and, and you don't know about it, you don't know that you're talking to a scammer.

[00:27:21] Bob: So, so Manny, what do you hope, uh, obviously I can tell from your voice you really want this people to hear this story 'cause you're, you, you want to help other people. What do you hope they remember about you and about this story?

[00:27:33] Manny Guerrero: Well, to listen to what the other person's saying, because I guess in between their smooth, smooth talk there's a, a lie there, you know, it's not right.

[00:27:49] Bob: Uh, Debbie, what about you? What do you want people to remember from your father's story?

[00:27:53] Debbie Splane: I just want them to remember how tragic it is, uh, to have that kind of money taken from you, uh, from underneath you that you've worked so hard for and you'll never get it back. I mean, that's just, tragic that you know, you can't get help from anyone. So when something like this happens, these are things that you need to remember is that if it's a number you don't know, hang, let it go. Or if you answer it by accident, hang up.

[00:28:26] Bob: Debbie still calls her father every day and they have a great relationship, but of course, nothing is foolproof. What would Debbie like adult children to think about when they're talking with their parents?

[00:28:39] Debbie Splane: Call him every day.

[00:28:40] Bob: Yeah.

[00:28:41] Debbie Splane: And dig deep for questions. I mean, even though I asked my father all these questions, he kind of kept it. But now I have to say, are you being honest? Are you sure? Ask as many times as you need to. They'll, they'll, uh, they'll cave, but…

[00:28:56] Bob: It's, it's really hard though, right? I mean, it's really hard. Yeah,

[00:29:00] Debbie Splane: I think the hardest part for us, I, I mean, for me, like I said, I feel guilty because number one, I don't live there. I, I wish that I did, but I live where I live and he, my father will not budge from Las Vegas. He's going to stay right there with my mother. So, which is fine. It's his, his life, his choice. But, um. I just feel like, you know, if you just keep digging, you know, with your parents and stay in touch with them, you know, things will happen. I mean this, I could have never found out about this, but with that detective's one call…

[00:29:37] Bob: Joe was done far too many scam stories. So he has some thoughts about what adult children can do for their parents too.

[00:29:46] Joe Vigil: Yeah, I think talk to them, ask them questions about different things. Maybe, Hey, who are you talking to? Are you talking to anybody? And specifically talk about this. Specifically talk about being scammed and just start asking probing questions. Hey, do you ever get letters? Do you ever get phone calls? And then ask the hard question, have you ever sent money? That's the root of it. And I guess you don't think that's gonna happen with somebody. It's like with my kids, if I think something's bothering them, I will just start asking them a bunch of questions until sometimes I'll just draw it out and then you can have the conversation. But I think that's the biggest thing is just awareness and having conversations about what not to do.

[00:30:28] Bob: Yeah, I agree. And it has to be more than one. Some of these folks don't want to share right away. But you can't say, Hey, get any phone calls? No. Okay, great. Check that box. It's gotta be more than that, right?

[00:30:39] Joe Vigil: Yeah, I would have, if you think it's a problem, if you think maybe it could happen, I would be talking about it every time you talk to them. Like my, my parents are both deceased, but it's, I never, I don't, nothing like that ever happened. But if they were still alive and older, I'd be about, I, every time I talk to them, I'd probably maybe ask them, they might be sick me, asking them, but, hey, it's their retirement. It's, it could be whatever that money is used for. I don't think that you can probably have too many conversations about it, especially because of how much it happens.  

[00:31:10] Bob: As you might expect. Joe, Manny, Debbie, and Vinny have all kept talking even after the TV story aired and the hot water heater was replaced.

[00:31:20] Joe Vigil: Yeah, she, after the story ran, she invited myself and a gentleman who replaced the water heater, to dinner because she was grateful of the story and we tried to pay. She wouldn't let us. We're like, why are you paying?

[00:31:36] Bob: I actually have a very delightful image in my head of the sound of you all at dinner laughing at and that being a bit of a happy ending to all this.

[00:31:44] Joe Vigil: Yeah, it was good. It was good seeing them again. It sounded like they're, of course, Manny was on the rebound.

[00:31:50] Bob: He's got hot water now.

[00:31:51] Joe Vigil: And he is got hot water. Yep.

[00:31:54] Bob: The Publishers Clearing House brand figures prominently in this story. But it's in a real state of flux right now. So, we wanted to talk a bit more about that and about sweepstakes scams in general. So today we have on friend of the perfect scam, Steve Baker, who worked at the Federal Trade Commission, protecting consumers for almost three decades. He also wrote a major paper on sweepstakes scams for the Better Business Bureau a few years ago. For starters, Publishers Clearing House was purchased by a gaming company recently. So there have been dramatic changes.

[00:32:26] Steve Baker: I'm not sure exactly what's going on with Publishers Clearing House. They're not doing mailings anymore, that's for sure. Of course, a lot of people remember those things and, and don't realize that they're not operating as they have in the past, so that's gonna continue to be an issue.

[00:32:46] Bob: An important note, even when it was operating winners were never required to make a payment.

[00:32:53] Steve Baker: If anybody asks you for any money, for any reason prior to providing you a prize, that turns it into a lottery, which is illegal unless it's done by one of the various states. So if they say they need money for taxes or fees or delivery stuff, it's a lottery. It's illegal. Don't send money, you haven't won.

[00:33:15] Bob: Of course, the Publishers Clearing House name still has huge brand recognition and their mailings were once so ubiquitous that when criminals reach out and say, remember when you entered our contest, odds are still good. That potential victims might say yes.

[00:33:30] Bob: And while Publishers Clearinghouse and the criminals use that name because it's familiar, that's not the only sweepstakes scam, right? There are others.

[00:33:39] Steve Baker: They have, they'll make up a name of the sweepstakes and tell people that they won. There are some others out there, but I tell you, you're gonna get a huge amount of money since this lottery and sweepstakes fraud is long been at least one of the top five sources of consumer complaints about consumer fraud. The other thing is that this hugely disproportionately losses among older people. In other words, they're clearly, they are absolutely targeting older people as part of their stuff. You have lots of older people who are fraud victims, just, but the crooks don't care. It's just the older people tend to have a little bit more money, so there's more money to steal. This is, there's only two or three frauds that I think specifically target older people, and this is one of 'em. Grandparent schemes are another one. But certainly something people really need to be aware of.  

[00:34:40] Bob: And they all follow the same strategy.

[00:34:43] Steve Baker: Typically, they would be in your standard Jamaican fraud. They would call and say, hi, this is Steve from Publishers Clearing House. Is this Bob Sullivan? Bob S. Sullivan, are you sitting down? I've got some great news for you. You have won $5 million. And I am a vice president here and once a year I get to call and award the second place prize. This is great. Aren't you excited? What kind of things would you wanna spend your money on and involve them in a little bit of conversation about that, and then turn to, we'll have a check in your hands tomorrow we'll have a courier delivered. Is your address 1, 2, 3 Main Street? Is there apartment number? Of course Uncle Sam's gonna want his cut, so we've gotta have some taxes upfront before we can deliver it to you. So you can send, here's how, and then explain how they're supposed to send the money and, and get them jazzed up and suggest that they don't tell anybody because other people may try to get you to rip off your winnings. And if it's a Jamaican call, they'll also usually tell you, Hey, in addition to this, we're also gonna give you a brand new Mercedes and Mercedes convertible and what color would you like it in, and we're gonna have that delivered to your house tomorrow to go along with your with it. And so then you find out what color Mercedes they want. Then the call will go back to getting them to send the money.

[00:36:23] Bob: And they usually send, ask for a check or wire transfer or something like that. How do they get the money?

[00:36:28] Steve Baker: There's a variety of ways. Traditionally they used Western Union or MoneyGram. Um, although since we've cracked down on both Western Union or MoneyGram, they're more cautious. A lot of the time, they, believe it or not, they ask people to do wire transfers or send cash. The cash is, believe it or not, a, a, a big way. And the Postal inspection Service actually I believe, has a program of monitoring mail going to Jamaica, specifically looking for magazines that have got a lot of cash in them. Now, it could be this, these are not a one-time transaction. If you send some money, they will call and say. Gee, there's been a problem with a courier and there's a glitch in it and just a little bit more money, and we'll have that delivery cleared up and people think it really is an error. They send more money and this can go on for months if people continue to send it. We had one older gentleman from St. Louis who was wealthy but had no kids and he had some mild cognitive impairment, and he ended up sending $7 million. And he…

[00:37:42] Bob: Oh my God.  

[00:37:43] Steve Baker: Over a period of time and of all sorts of excuses. And this guy Ted, thought that one last tranche of cash was gonna do it. But you have a lot of people, particularly in the lottery area, who are ongoing victims. This isn't just a one time in and out thing. They have people continue to send money over a period of time and it can really add up in a big way. Because people think one last step, the one little more payment, and I'm gonna have this huge check.

[00:38:16] Bob: Wow. And it ruins lives, doesn't it?

[00:38:18] Steve Baker: It really does ruin lives. There's been suicides over this and people. And not everybody has got cognitive impairment. I've talked to guys who are very successful, successful financially, who have not even told their wives about this, who are really committed, and they really think this money is there. It's coming, that there's just some follow-ups, and if they can help 'em with a little bit of money to straighten those out, the money is this huge check is gonna appear at their door. People get totally hooked on these things, and of course, the crooks are very believable and they're very professional. They're really good at this. We all think that we should be able to tell when somebody's lying to us, and maybe we can figure out fibs from children or spouses. But the idea that the whole thing is just totally a fraud is really beyond a lot of people's comprehension and they think they should be able to tell, but of course you really can't.

[00:39:18] Bob: So what's the specific advice for folks just either to avoid this themselves or to help maybe people that they love, avoid them.

[00:39:25] Steve Baker: I think that the easiest thing I've been able to come up with is if anybody tells you you've won a prize and have to pay a nickel for any reason –they're crooks and it's just not open to dispute. So it's absolutely, there's that Publishers Clearing House used to have, I don't know if they still do, a staff of people you could call and they would tell you, you have not won. And so that is, is certainly useful. I'm not sure that they do anymore. You are not a winner and you need to check these things out extraordinarily carefully. It's, it's tough. 'cause people, I have talked to people who think they won and even talking to them when I was at the Federal Trade Commission and told them, you have not won. They really wanna believe. And they don't wanna throw away the chance of $5 million on something that might be true. So you gotta check it out. Be very careful you. You didn't win Publisher's Clearing House, and you can also look for the phone number. Of course, a lot of those numbers can be spoofed, but if it's an 8, 7, 6 area code that's from Jamaica and that that is a dead bang giveaway. Because probably the majority of this is being done from Jamaica by Jamaicans.

[00:40:48] Bob: I'm glad you have several times brought up this concept that people want to believe, which I think is really important. I've had people tell me they knew it probably wasn't true, but even if there was like a 1% chance, what's, what's a few thousand dollars if there's, might be $5 million waiting at the other end? Can you talk about that psychology a bit?

[00:41:05] Steve Baker: Yeah, that's right. There's, there's a lot of misunderstanding I think in the general brains. The other misconception you also get is I have even heard law enforcement say, gee, these people who fall for this stuff, they're just stupid and greedy. And like I said, I have talked to a lot of these people who have become victims of these, and this isn't greed for the most part. These aren't people who want designer clothes or wanna buy Lamborghinis to tool around their neighborhood in. These are people that think about, gee, what could I do if I had this $5 million? What could I do with my family? What could I do for my friends? What about rebuilding a community center or helping donating money to charity? So it's like I said, it's not, it's, and people are thinking that's really what's going on in most of these things. So like I said, there's a lot of misunderstanding of kind of what motivates people on these sorts of fraud and personal greed for personal satisfaction just really isn't the motivating factor from what anybody I've ever talked to,

[00:42:12]Bob: it's often about leaving money to kids and stuff like that, right?

[00:42:15] Steve Baker: Yeah. And or her husband or my nephew's going through a divorce, they need some money. Or how about Agnes down the street and she can barely pay her bills and I can help her out, or I'm involved with the Boy Scouts and gee wouldn't be really nice to be able to give them money to support the mission they're doing? Those are the things in my experience that go through people's heads. The other thing people have seen in the past with sweepstakes are mailings that, that are, look very official, have a lot of stamps and seals on them, and they suggest that you have won a lot of money and you simply have to put $20 into an self-addressed envelope they've provided and sent it back and your money is gonna be, they're gonna give you a huge prize and you just need to send about a small amount of money, like $20 to get it. The postal inspection service has done fabulous work on those frauds. Those were worldwide, and I think a lot of your listeners have got those at one sort, one time or another. They're a little ambiguous on whether you've won or not, but as you mentioned, if people think there's a 1% chance that they have actually won a huge amount of money, they're willing to roll the dice and and give it a shot and send in the money. I think those are more or less being stamped out by the great work that's Postal Inspection Service has done. But a lot of people have, I know, seen them in the past. I've gotten them in the mail myself. And again, those are primarily directed at older people and need to be avoided. And uh, the other thing I would worry about is Facebook friends telling you that you have won a prize. That's very common at all. You get a thing from your friend, Pete from Facebook Messenger, and Pete says, gee, I just won a hundred thousand dollars from this sweepstakes and I saw the list of other award recipients, and you're on it too, so you're also a winner, so you need to reach out to this phone number to claim your money. That's actually not your friend Pete that's sending the message. It's somebody that's copied Pete's account or taken over his account or simply impersonated his account. So anytime you see something on Facebook from a supposed friend and even slightly dubious, just call him or send him an email too. Don't just rely on the Facebook part.

[00:44:49] Bob: One last point before we go, and this is why it's so important to not answer calls you don't expect. The criminals are so prepared, they seem to have the answer for everything. They even impersonate government officials, even Steve Baker.

[00:45:07] Steve Baker: They impersonate law enforcement. When I was still at the FTC, I got a half a dozen calls at my office in Chicago from people who thought I had called them and told them that they won, the caller had said, gee, since there's so much fraud going on in the lottery area, the federal government is now taking over notifying people that they have won so that to root out the fraud. And they had pretended to be me. And I would tell them who, what was the phone number? Was the area code 202, which is in Washington. I said, you found me in Chicago. I'm obviously at area Code 312 and we have never talked before and the Federal Trade Commission, or no other government agency is involved in awarding prizes for sweepstakes or lotteries.

[00:45:54] Bob: But the criminals impersonated you in order to tell their story.

[00:45:57] Steve Baker: Yes, exactly. And they have impersonated a lot of people at the Federal Trade Commission.

[00:46:03] Bob: So to repeat, Steve's simple rule, if someone is asking you to pay money upfront, you haven't won a sweepstakes, period. Throw out the mail, hang up the phone. Even if the caller says they're Steve Baker or anyone else working for the government, just hang up. For the perfect scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:46:42] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. To learn more about the Fraud Watch Network volunteers and the fraud survivors they've helped, check out the new video series, Fraud Wars, on AARP's YouTube channel. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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