Criminals Threaten Jail Time in Jury Duty Scam

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[00:00:02] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Jana Cash: So as I'm driving towards the courthouse, he says, "They have a red flag, and the bond of $1000 is not enough. How much more can I get?" And I said, "I can't get anything. Is there any other way?" "No." So I kept driving, I was looking at the sun, and I'm thinking, okay, maybe this is, I'm not going to see that for a long time now, because who knows how this day is going to end?

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[00:00:32] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:37] Bob: Most of us want to do the right thing. As citizens we pay our taxes, we move over for ambulances and fire trucks, we park legally, most of the time, and we do our duty when it's time for jury duty. The insidious part of today's scam is it preys on those people who have a great sense of duty, who feel a strong urge to do the right thing. Meet Jana Cash who feels a particularly strong sense of civic duty, I'll let her explain why, and that's what criminals took advantage of.

[00:01:12] Jana Cash: So I lived in Munich, yes sir, for about 20 years in Germany. I was born in Czech Republic outside of Prague, and then I moved to Germany because I had some German background. My dad has a German background, but I am originally from Czech Republic. It's beautiful.

[00:01:29] Bob: That means you speak several different languages, I heard.

[00:01:32] Jana Cash: I do, I do, yes. It's kind of a hobby. I do speak just a few. There are people who have lived there that speak much more than myself, so I don't take too much of a credit for that.

[00:01:42] Bob: Jana has a great story about the life journey that brought her to America, to Florida.

[00:01:49] Jana Cash: We moved in 2013. My husband is actually a US citizen. He's a Floridian, born, raised, and all that, and he's from Miami, so he was coaching American football in Europe, believe it or not.

[00:02:01] Bob: Oh wow.

[00:02:02] Jana Cash: And that's where we met. He just couldn't bear with the German weather anymore, actually, and decided to go back to the US.

[00:02:10] Bob: Is he still involved in football?

[00:02:13] Jana Cash: He retired. He coached high school football for about 33 years and took up the state championship and then he retired.

[00:02:21] Bob: Not long after they moved to Florida, Jana studied to become a US citizen. Now their child was in school at the same time, which meant, well, they were sort of taking the same classes.

[00:02:34] Jana Cash: We would study together, and he goes, "Mom, no, this is the judicial, and the President does this, and this is the parliament, and this is this. So here I have him teaching me, which was great.

[00:02:44] Bob: And among the lessons Jana learned studying for the test was the importance of jury duty in the US system of justice.

[00:02:53] Jana Cash: Once you become a citizen of the United States of America, the jury duty is a very important role, and because of the legislative system and all that, so it's a part of it, that citizens, and we all know that from the movies; you get invited, you get, or you get served and you have to come and be a part of a jury and that's how this whole history and country's been set up. So yeah, I was learning that and I knew it's important.

[00:03:18] Bob: And that's part of the reason that Jana is, well frankly, panicked when this call arrives a few weeks ago.

[00:03:28] Jana Cash: So the person on the other line was very confident, basically asked me if I was Jana Cash, because my gets always mispronounced, and if I'm residing in the address in my address, which they knew my address. And of course, that was like a, yes, I am. They got introduced, or he introduced himself as calling from the West Florida Courthouse.

[00:03:49] Bob: And the officer from the West Florida Courthouse says Jana was supposed to show up at court yesterday to serve on jury duty. Jana is immediately mortified.

[00:04:03] Jana Cash: So I am very German in this. If I miss anything I get very nervous right away. Oh my God, what did I do? Mind you, I've lived in 4 different countries, I've never had a ticket, I have never been confronted by the law enforcement. I have never been in the courthouse except my work because I work as an interpreter. I thought, of course, that first moment that I missed something. It was like a shock.

[00:04:25] Bob: But the real shock comes a moment later when he says...

[00:04:28] Jana Cash: There is a warrant on arrest onto me, because I missed jury duty. And it was a grand jury for a minor assault, sexual minor assault, and I have missed it the day before. And to do that there are severe consequences in the United States of America.

[00:04:45] Bob: A warrant out for her arrest? Severe consequences? That sounds horrible, and right away, he starts flooding Jana with information.

[00:04:54] Jana Cash: They had sent me immediately the document, the warrant and arrest. There's two case numbers. And basically, for action filed original accusation charge, failure to appear, contempt of court. Third calendar term 2025. Location, West Pasco Judicial County Courthouse. Honorable Judge Marcia Morales Howard. I have actually Googled that today and there is a judge with this name at the court in Florida. She is the District Court for the middle district of Florida, and she's the Chief Judge.

[00:05:33] Bob: And at the same time other messages start hitting Jana seemingly from every direction.

[00:05:39] Bob: So while you're on the phone with this person, you're getting emails and text messages also?

[00:05:43] Jana Cash: Yes.

[00:05:44] Bob: Wow, that sounds overwhelming.

[00:05:47] Jana Cash: Yes, it was, it was very overwhelming. They had my email, obviously they had my number because they called me.

[00:05:53] Bob: And the documents look very scary.

[00:05:57] Jana Cash: They did put the right information in there, with my address, Defendant Jana Cash, United States of America Plaintiff. I printed it out of my printer because I was still working, I was shaking. I read a few things and the panic mode turned on. That was it.

[00:06:13] Bob: I'm just picturing your hands shaking as you're pulling this paper out of your printer and you're, and there, there it says, there's an arrest warrant with your name. Oh my god.

[00:06:20] Jana Cash: Uh-huh. That's right. It's your name, it's got the United States of America District court logo on it, nice and colored, pasted perfectly if you think about it later on, with the name of the judges, with my driver's license on it. They knew my DOB, they knew my Social Security number.

[00:06:39] Bob: And as all this is happening, she thinks back about studying to become a US citizen.

[00:06:45] Jana Cash: My husband told me when I was applying for the citizenship, and when I was actually passing all the exams and go, going through that with the COVID, he said, "One thing you must remember, if you get invited to do jury duty, you have to go, unless you're sick and you have to provide a note from the doctor and blah, blah, blah." So I was like, okay, surely those dots just connected in my head. Jury duty, I missed it, and basically equals trouble, equals I am in trouble. Oh my god, what, okay. So the first thing was ... what can I do? How can I fix this, 'cause I'm a problem solver. How can I fix it? So my first response was, I'm going to come to the courthouse. I'm going to straighten this out because that's what I do. I will call my manager, I will excuse myself from work, I will have to get my son picked up, and I will have to leave and go straighten it out because that's what you have to do. Maybe I made a mistake, maybe there is a misunderstanding, somebody signed on my behalf, mail can get lost, millions of things are coming through your brain. They basically told me, no, you cannot come here because if you come here, you're going to get arrested.

[00:07:50] Bob: Don't come to the courthouse, you'll get arrested. Instead...

[00:07:55] Jana Cash: The other option, they sent me a Department of the Treasury, they sent me another document of what I can read my rights. They made me read some of that. Basically I would have to place a bond because of that warrant and try to pause it at the court, and then hire a legal attorney and to straighten it out. But as of now, there is a warrant and you could be arrested. Bond, I was like, okay, how much is the bond? There is a penalty. Okay, I thought maybe $500 or $200 okay. He told me $9000.

[00:08:28] Bob: $9000.

[00:08:30] Jana Cash: 9000 US Dollars, yes.

[00:08:32] Bob: Wow.

[00:08:33] Jana Cash: I work as an IT. I don't definitely make that kind of money and I didn't have the money in my account.

[00:08:40] Bob: Before she can do anything, she'll have to post a bond and somehow come up with thousands of dollars.

[00:08:48] Jana Cash: So my first thought was, okay, I will have to call my husband and talk to my husband what we can do. "No, you cannot. You're not allowed to talk to anyone; you're not allowed to hang up. You have to straighten this out. We need to take all the information that we need for the judge," and basically, they would not let me hang up. They would not let me talk to anybody.

[00:09:07] Bob: There's thousands of thoughts swirling around Jana's panicked mind, many of them involving her son now a teenager.

[00:09:15] Jana Cash: My son has his first soccer season games on Saturday and Sunday in Orlando. I have to go; I've never missed his games. So this is all going through your head, this is, because I'm a soccer mom. I am a mom first and most of all, I'm a mom. Then I have a job. And then I have a life. I lost both of my parents very, right after, one after the other before I moved to the US. So I feel always like, he's all I've got. All I can't disappoint him, I can't, this cannot, I cannot even bear to see, you watch the movies and you think, oh my god, imagine he's coming home and his mom's getting handcuffed and arrested, and I just saw it all already, my imaging machine went a little bit probably overboard but in that fear I just started to shake. I was very nervous. I started to cry. They told me not to cry. I said, "I'm so sorry, I am a good citizen. I love to be in the United States of America. I have never done anything to break the law. And right now you are basically telling me I'm going to go to jail," which is, this cannot happen. It can't happen.

[00:10:15] Bob: And there is an immediate practical concern. She's due to pick up her son from school in just a few minutes, and remember, they've told Jana she can't talk to anyone. But...

[00:10:28] Jana Cash: But I did text my son because my son and his friend, I was supposed to pick them up from school, and I couldn't. So I texted, "Mommy cannot pick you up. It's either Clara or Daddy will pick you up, okay?" And he was still at school, but I just wanted him to make, I didn't want to scare him but because I'm never, I always pick him up, I'm always there. The guy, he told me, "Are you texting, Ma'am? 'Cause you're not allowed to be texting."

[00:10:50] Bob: Wow.

[00:10:51] Jana Cash: I don't know how they knew that, because they didn't make any, when you send a text, it doesn't make any sound.

[00:10:55] Bob: Yeah. Yeah, somehow, he knew, wow.

[00:10:57] Jana Cash: Somehow, he knew that I was texting. So I said, "No, I'm not." It was like "I'm not." I said whatever, if he sees that, then I'm screwed now, I'm screwed, that's it, I'm done. I was like, okay, but I have to tell my son and I have to try to take care of him, that's my job. And then so that was another additional fear. Okay, now I texted. If they saw it, that's going to go against me. And he, he was getting a little bit upset.

[00:11:21] Bob: The man on the phone knew the moment she dashed off a quick text to her son, which makes Jana even more scared and, well now, she's really willing to follow their instructions. She doesn't dare deviate. They tell her to get in her car and start driving. Jana, a soccer mom, leaves prepared.

[00:11:40] Jana Cash: So I got in the car and I throw like a couple of power bars, protein bars in my bag, because I thought if I'm not coming back, who knows what's going to happen when, once I go to the courthouse. I was ready for the worst. I was like, okay, if I get arrested...

[00:11:53] Bob: So you took protein bars in case you got arrested and didn't have food?

[00:11:56] Jana Cash: Yeah, I did.

[00:11:58] Bob: Wow.

[00:11:58] Jana Cash: I put, I'm a soccer mom. Remember we're on the soccer fields like for hours and hours.

[00:12:03] Bob: They tell her she's being watched, very carefully.

[00:12:08] Jana Cash: That's right. So they knew the vehicle I'm driving. He goes, "You have a Hyundai, right?" Which I was like, okay, how... it was just so many details that they knew. I said, "Yes, I do." And they said, "I am allowed to only drive to the location." They sent me the address. They told me to put it in the GPS and tell them what the ETA is. And basically drive and deposit.

[00:12:29] Bob: But there is another problem Jana has to contend with.

[00:12:34] Jana Cash: I told them I can only give them $1000. I cannot, because our family account is managed by my husband, so I said, "I can only give you $1000. That's all I've got." They were like, they will have to clarify that with the clerk and so forth, and text... so I was like praying, I'm like, please, just let's say it's okay. $1000, okay, I'll straighten it out, I'll go, I'll get another appointment for the jur--, jury duty. I'll stay there as long as they need, but so he was like, "Okay, you need to drive. You need to get in the car and take your documents, take everything with you, take your ID, take your driver's license, and go to your..." I said, "I have to go to the bank. I don't have $1000 laying around at home." You, where, where am I going? So I told him, "I have to go to the Bank of America." "Okay, how far is the bank?" "6 miles." "Okay, how long is that going to take?" "About 8 minutes." "Okay."

[00:13:23] Bob: And she heads to the bank. Even while driving they watch her.

[00:13:29] Jana Cash: Yeah, they told me I cannot hang up. I have to stay on the line. There's going to be a sergeant monitoring my drive, and he's going to be talking to me while I'm driving to the bank. So I did.

[00:13:41] Bob: And once she has the cash from the bank, now she has to send the money to the court. So they give her directions to an ATM, a crypto ATM, at a gas station. When she gets to the machine, she's really confused.

[00:13:57] Jana Cash: I've never used them. I don't send cash to anybody. Which he provided me, he provided me instructions exactly with my name, with the address. I have the document right in front of me with the US Treasury logo on the paper, all prepared, basically what I need to do. Well, when I get in there, I have to go to the machine, you type in your DOB, your name, they'll, they will send you a bar code on your cellphone that you have to scan. So they send me a bar code and on the bar code it said, "Pasco Sheriff's Office." Yeah, so he was with me on the phone. He was walking me through it, because I was so scared, so shaky. A thousand dollars, it's in a gas station next to the post office, and I'm thinking, okay, what do I do, I, so I don't make a mistake?

[00:14:39] Bob: And shaking, the machine does give her trouble.

[00:14:43] Jana Cash: It wouldn't scan. I'm like, it's not scanning. I know how to scan a QR code. It's not scanning the QR code. At one point, the guy was getting a little, I would say, aggressive. He reminded me, "Remember, if this doesn't, if you don't do it right, there is a warrant." Like he kept bringing up that warrant and the arrest, and all that. "So you need to make it right. You need to focus." And I was like, "I can't focus, I'm really nervous and it's very scary." And even though I was saying stuff like that and there were people in the gas station, nobody, nobody pays attention. People mind their own business and they think, crazy lady, she's just sending somebody money or whatever, I don't know.

[00:15:20] Bob: It's just such a sad image for me though. You're, there you were there terrified, probably shaking again, shoving these dollar bills into this machine. This guy on the phone is yelling at you and nobody cares.

[00:15:29] Jana Cash: It is.

[00:15:29] Bob: It's sad.

[00:15:32] Bob: Finally, she gets the machine to work and gets the receipt they demand, and now she's told to go back to her car and wait for a ruling from the court.

[00:15:41] Jana Cash: So as I'm driving to, towards the courthouse because that's what he told me to do so I would have to sign some documents, he says, "They have a red flag, and the bond of $1000 is not enough. How much more can I get?" And I said, "I can't get anything." So I told him, "I have to call my husband. Is there any other way?" "No." So I kept driving on the 54 which goes towards the courthouse. I was looking at the sun, and I'm thinking, okay, maybe this is, I'm not going to see that for a long time now, because who knows what's going to happen today? Who knows how this day is going to end?

[00:16:14] Bob: Who knows how this day is going to end? But after a lot of back and forth, someone else gets on the phone and says...

[00:16:21] Jana Cash: "Okay, you need to pull over and you need to call your husband and you need to talk to your husband, but you have to merge the calls."

[00:16:29] Bob: So Jana starts a three-way call.

[00:16:32] Jana Cash: I was obviously very scared, but I couldn't tell him. So he goes, "What's going on?" I said, "I need you to transfer $1500 in my account." He goes, "What's going on?" I said, "I cannot tell you. This is a conference call. Please transfer $1500 on my account." He goes, "What for? What's going on? Why don't you tell me? I texted you, why didn't you reply?" I said, I was quiet. I was just quiet because they were on the call. And he was like, "What is it for?" And he goes, "Is it for Europe?" He thought maybe somebody in Europe is in trouble. Maybe some of my, my cousins or somebody needs anything or who knows what. I was like, no. "What is it for?" "I can't tell you." So I could tell my husband was getting angry because he, I've never done this, in 15 years I have never done anything like this.

[00:17:17] Bob: Of course, yeah.

[00:17:18] Jana Cash: And $1500 is not 20 bucks. So he was like, "What's going on?" I said, "I cannot tell you." "Where are you?" He was at home then. He goes, "Where are you?" I'm like, "I'm not home." He goes, "I know because I'm here. Where are you?" I said, "I can't tell you."

[00:17:33] Bob: Eventually he agrees to transfer some cash to her account, but...

[00:17:38] Jana Cash: So he was trying to do the money transfer on the phone and hung up. When he hung up, he ended the call for everybody.

[00:17:46] Bob: Oh god!

[00:17:47] Jana Cash: Exactly. That's exactly what went through my head. Oh my god, they told me I'm not allowed to hang up, that's like big no. In a split of a second, they called me back. They said, "What happened?" They made it very clear to me, don't do that again.

[00:18:03] Bob: But now she has access to $1500 more, and once again, follows their instructions. This time, she heads to a different crypto ATM in a part of town she's very unfamiliar with.

[00:18:16] Jana Cash: When I arrived there, I'm like, that's it, Jana. That's it. This is where it ends. I've got $1500. I'm not in a good area. This is not good. I walked in and it was like a market, one of those old gas stations. I walk in, I walk around, I'm like, it's not here. It's not here.

[00:18:34] Bob: She can't find the crypto ATM in the store. This time, she asks for help. She asks a guy behind the counter, "Do you have a crypto ATM here?

[00:18:44] Jana Cash: He goes, "Yeah, $5." And I'm looking at him like, are you serious? You can't be serious. I have to pay now for information? Okay, this is not good. I am, I'm like I'm on the edge now where I'm either going to start screaming, crying, break down. So I'm like, "Do you take credit?" I said, "Do you take like debit cards?" Something? I was like I was going to pay him the $5 to tell me where the machine was. He goes, "No, I was just joking." I'm like, "It's not a good time to joke today with me dude." He says anyways, it was, he did like,"In the corner by the bathroom." So he knew I was scared. He knew what I was doing. He heard everything I said to these guys because I said, "It's not here. I can't find it. I'm sorry. So they probably used to that, they don't interfere. They feel like it's none of my business. You want to pay money into a machine, go ahead. None of my business.

[00:19:33] Bob: But this time the instructions she gets are different and well, suddenly, that makes Jana start to wonder.

[00:19:43] Jana Cash: So I did, and I, again, I started it all over, so I knew, okay, I have to put my name, I got, you type in your DOB, they send you the QR code. And he sent me a QR code, it worked a little better, but then he says, "I'll give you a number for the receipt." I'm like, why? Because I'd already done it. I'm like, "No, I'm going to put my number here," he goes, "No, you do not put your number in." So he got mad. I'm like what? And in that moment, I was like, this is not right. This is, the law enforcement is allowed to do a lot but they're not allowed to do that. He's not allowed to talk to me like this. So I froze and paused, and he knew that. He was losing it. He realized that okay, he's not trustworthy right now the way he's acting. And I am doubting. So he really started to like got, he got louder. He goes, "Ma'am, you do not understand. If you don't do this right now, you're going to get arrested. I will dispatch an officer. I know exactly where you're at, and I'm going to send someone there to pick you up." And I was like, I didn't even know, I had no words.

[00:20:49] Bob: Something inside gives Jana the strength to say no, a partial no anyway, to all his demands.

[00:20:58] Jana Cash: And he goes, I said, "Okay, I will deposit the cash." He goes, "How much cash are you depositing?" I'm, and somehow, I said, you know what I'm not going to give him 1500. I said, "I only have a thousand." He goes, "That's not the information I got from the previous person." I'm like, "I only have $1000. The bank only allows me to take $1000 at the, in the same day." And he was like, "Okay, deposit $1000." So I, shaking I took it out of the envelope because they gave it to me in the bank, and I was like, "Okay, I deposit $1000." And I was like, that's it. I'm not giving him more than that, I can't. Something, and I was already like getting out of it, this is not right. This is not how a citizen should be treated in this country. I know that for a fact. This is no way that this is allowed.

[00:21:43] Bob: So she puts only $1000 in the machine, holds back $500 cash, and then decides she's heading straight for the courthouse to fix things once and for all. The man on the phone tries to stop her.

[00:21:58] Jana Cash: He told me, "Ma'am, there is no need for you. We put a pause. We froze the warrant for now and you will get more information from the courthouse on Monday. You can go home now."

[00:22:09] Bob: You can go home now. Something about those words triggers something inside Jana.

[00:22:16] Jana Cash: And when he said that, in that second, I realized that I got robbed, that I got scammed.

[00:22:23] Bob: Right as she's about to reach the courthouse, she sees through the entire experience. The callers are not officers of the court. They are criminals who somehow had access to a lot of her personal information.

[00:22:39] Jana Cash: When he told me I don't have to go anymore, I just pulled over and broke down. That's it. That was it. I just started crying, and I was like, everything like fell off, and I realized, okay, I just got scammed. I just got robbed. That's it. And everything just, this whole pressure, it was, that was it.

[00:23:01] Bob: Jana calls her husband and explains what happened, and she checks in on her child.

[00:23:07] Jana Cash: I was texting with him. I'm like, "Where are you? Did anybody pick you up?" "Yeah, Dad was here." He went to his friend's house. He didn't want to be at home. He felt scared, even though he's 14, but you know when your mom's not home, when your mom doesn't pick you up, when you feel like she is in danger, you don't know what's going on, he was very upset and scared as well.

[00:23:30] Bob: She also calls a friend.

[00:23:33] Jana Cash: And I just started crying. I started bawling, I'm like, "I cannot believe..." and she goes, "Oh my god." She was totally like, she's a big empath, she says, "I would have probably done the same thing as you. Don't feel bad. It's okay, it's okay, just calm down, come home, I'm going to come to your house." So I was very, very thankful that she came over and to help me, just hugged me, you know. When you get that hug that somebody says, it's okay. It's a mess up, but it's okay. It was bad, but it's okay. You're okay now.

[00:24:01] Bob: And by my count, you walked away with $500 in your pocket, so I think you did well.

[00:24:05] Jana Cash: That's exactly what she said to me. She goes, "You're so smart. You did not give them everything," you know.

[00:24:11] Bob: Yeah, you like had the sense to bargain with the guy. That was cool.

[00:24:14] Jana Cash: That's, she tried to boost me up as well like that. She goes, "Yes, you did not give him everything. Good on you. I'm so proud of you."

[00:24:22] Bob: After she calms down, Jana calls the police.

[00:24:26] Jana Cash: I called 911, and the officer was very good. He goes, "I just started my shift. You are the third person that you called me of the same thing."

[00:24:33] Bob: Wow.

[00:24:35] Bob: He initially tells her three other people had called the sheriff's office to report the same jury duty scam. A little later Jana learns the real count is seven.

[00:24:47] Jana Cash: Pasco County's a small county. If you have ever lived in Tampa, Hillsborough is big, but Pasco is not a big county. But seven people got scammed. And apparently for bigger amounts than I paid.

[00:24:58] Bob: Ugh.

[00:24:59] Jana Cash: So they must have just attacked this community knowing this is nice suburbs, people, they go to Tampa, they work, they live outside of Tampa, and that they will pay because they don't want to be humiliated and arrested. Yeah, it's definitely you don't wish that on anybody, not even on your enemies. On your biggest enemy, I don't wish this on anyone, honestly. I hope that somebody can prevent this, that somebody can stop these people doing what they're doing because it's just evil, it's pure evil.

[00:25:33] Bob: It does help to know that it's happened to other people. It's not a good thing that there were other victims that day, but it probably made you feel at least a little bit more like you were part of a community, and it wasn't just you.

[00:25:41] Jana Cash: That's correct, yeah. You're absolutely right.

[00:25:46] Bob: Even talking with me about what happened, Jana said her heart was in her throat.

[00:25:51] Bob: The violation of, you now know for a number of hours, someone else was essentially a puppet master, controlling you, almost like they had slipped drugs into you or something. I mean that's a horrible feeling.

[00:26:01] Jana Cash: Horrible. For someone like me who doesn't drink, doesn't smoke, doesn't do drugs, it was a horrible feeling. The adrenaline, the fear that took over my brain, my heart rate was going up, like I could hear my, I could really hear my heartbeat. I was like, and that's what I mean. And I'm in a good shape. There are people that are not. And they would, it could be fatal for somebody who's elderly, who...

[00:26:28] Bob: Sure.

[00:26:29] Jana Cash: And the fact that...

[00:26:30] Bob: Anybody really.

[00:26:31] Jana Cash: So I feel like I was held hostage over the phone for about three hours. By the way, it took three hours.

[00:26:36] Bob: Three hours.

[00:26:37] Jana Cash: Yes.

[00:26:38] Bob: Oh my god.

[00:26:39] Bob: It's remarkable how prepared her criminals were.

[00:26:44] Jana Cash: Were they professionals? 100%. The documents, the pasting, the paperwork. Knowing that somebody has your Social Security number, full Social Security number, your driver's license number, full driver's license number, your full address, your DOB, they know the car you drive; how much more do people know about you to scam you? They have basically everything, right?

[00:27:09] Bob: One thing that, that really strikes as sad and, and frustrating about this story for me is that you mentioned it very early on. You're German, and so if someone says these are the rules, you follow them, because you want to be a good citizen. And it's precisely your loyalty to being a good citizen and to following the rules that they took advantage of, and that just seems terrible to me.

[00:27:29] Jana Cash: I agree. I do agree, and thank you. I really appreciate your, your feedback. I, I'm a rule follower, everybody knows that, and I'm a problem solver, but in that moment, I was lost.

[00:27:40] Bob: How did the criminals know so much about her? Those details really played a big role in their ability to manipulate her.

[00:27:48] Jana Cash: This is so deep. You feel like they know where I live. They know everything about me. I actually started to do now research. What is Dark Web? I had no idea. How can anybody know everything about me? What if they come here? What if they come here? They know where I live. Like it's crazy, but these people get all the information whether they are in the United States or not. The impact it had on my whole family is tremendous. And my son actually he, he talked to me the other day, he goes, "Mommy, how did they find out all that stuff about you?" I said, "I don't know." "How did they know where you live? How did they know what car you... how..." I said, "I don't know." These people are prepared. They're criminals. They belong to jail. They do illegal stuff. This is not okay.

[00:28:40] Bob: Her recent experience with the citizenship test weighed on her mind too.

[00:28:44] Jana Cash: That's why I think I took it serious, this whole phone call because I know it's important and you should, obviously you can get sick and miss it and excuse yourself, but it makes sense if there is a jury and there is a court date and, and you are invited to serve and then you don't, and they don't have enough jurors, they have to probably reschedule, and that is complicated. And the funny story is I do translate; I interpret as interpreter German and Czech and Slavic interpreter for courts.

[00:29:10] Bob: Oh wow.

[00:29:11] Jana Cash: So I do a lot of Zooms, and I assist a lot of mediations and a lot of even trials. I went to trial, I was in Pentagon last year to interpret for the, for the top, top government leaders from Slovakia and for the Chief of Air Force, like you do that and then something like that happens to you, that's like a cliche. It's crazy. It's crazy.

[00:29:34] Bob: So it's not like you didn't know anything about the inside of a courtroom.

[00:29:37] Jana Cash: Exactly. I've been to courtrooms many times. Recently in Tampa and but I've never done jury duty.

[00:29:43] Bob: You know we hear it constantly, how could something like this happen? Well...

[00:29:49] Jana Cash: It truly believe that first of all, this is a crime what happened. If it happened physically on the street and somebody would, I don't know, rob me and steal my purse and run away, or beat me up or whatever under the bridge, people would really feel sorry for you. When this happened like that, people really think you're dumb. They think, anybody will tell you, "How could you do, how could you fall for this? How could you believe this Jana? Come on, it's you out of all the people I know, you fell..." I'm like, yes, I did because you don't understand this is worse than a mental abuse, and I call it a mental crime. This is something somebody committed a crime through their mental manipulation, through being prepared; yes, it's a scam, but it's really worse than that because I truly believe this can leave more damage inside of your head than if somebody just slapped you or stole your purse in the mall. Because you will start doubting a lot of things. You will start doubting when somebody rings the bell. You will start doubting if somebody is following you in the car out of the soccer fields. You will, it's a mental damage. For a lot of people, this can be really dangerous, and I truly believe it's important that people are aware that it's happening, not just from the maybe jury duty, a little newsclip, but there are a lot of victims out there that go through this, because they're honest people. Some people can call it dumb, some people can call it stupid, but I call it, you know what, I'm an honest person, and I can make mistakes, and if I had made a mistake because if I missed some letter in the mail, because, or I've overseen something and it was a jury duty which is important to this, to this government, okay, I made a mistake. But so I'm very honest, and I paid a price for that, but what I'm trying to say is, there are people out there that maybe would take it that, or wouldn't get out of it that easily. They could have, it could have potential consequences on their health and it's just not right. That's what I truly believe.

[00:31:50] Bob: And I'm, I'm so grateful that you're willing to talk about it, because I agree with you 1000% of course, and the more people hear about this, the more we can flip the way that we view this, because you're absolutely right. If somebody punched you and stole your money, everyone would rush to your aid. But for some reason, we treat this crime differently. It's, and it just makes it worse. And it makes it much easier for the criminals too, the fact that we behave that way.

[00:32:11] Jana Cash: It's, it really is like a bad movie. I can tell you that. And it stays and it hurts you. And honestly, you don't worry about losing the money, but it's the, it's the way you've been basically attacked. And I do call it mental crime. It's been, you've been robbed, you've been mentally abused, traumatized. I must have got, I don't know how many lines in my face and how many gray hair after that, after those three hours. Honestly, if I think about it just now, it's, but when you're in it, you don't think. That's what happens, I think, to a lot of people. You just stop thinking. You become a robot and you listen to the orders. And so the fear takes over, the panic takes over, all I was thinking is, I can get arrested. I've never been arrested in my life. I've never been in jail in my entire life.

[00:33:06] Bob: You become a robot. Fear takes over. You just stop thinking. This is why we say all the time; anyone can be the victim of a scam. To understand a bit more about jury duty scams and the psychology of scams in general, we have Steve Weisman here. He's a professor at Bentley University where he teaches white collar crime. He's also a scam expert and writes the blog, "Scamicide.com." One thing he says often, however bad the scam world sounds, it's even worse.

[00:33:42] Steve Weisman: As far as scams go, scams have been with us forever. When you're looking at the history of them, many of them are really just updates of scams that have been around for hundreds of years. The Nigerian email letter is just an evolution of the Spanish prisoner scam from the 1500s. But what's making it worse now is technology. And when you're looking particularly at artificial intelligence, which is able to be used quite readily by even unsophisticated scammers, they're able to update their scams to make them much more believable. So these scammers, they've got a knowledge of psychology that Freud would have envied, and now they're armed with the technology that makes is even easier for them to perpetrate their scams.

[00:34:29] Bob: Criminals have a wealth of information they can use to attack. That's just what they did to Jana.

[00:34:37] Steve Weisman: It was a unique situation for her where she was perhaps even more susceptible, because she knew of the importance of jury duty. And jury duty is quite important. You really can't have a justice system without it. But so many people think of jury duty as some kind of a chore, and put it, put it aside in their mind. So the idea that someone might have missed jury duty is something that could be prominent in really anyone's mind.

[00:35:03] Bob: And the emotional reaction for her may have even been stronger. The emotions are really the critical thing in this situation, right?

[00:35:11] Steve Weisman: Absolutely, and that's what they do. They prey on emotions and so many scams do that. And again, one of the red flags is, it's easy to say guess what, no court is going to call you and demand a payment for missing jury duty. But people don't necessarily know that, and further, here again it's the easy access of technology. If you get a phone call, it may appear to come from the local court because a very simple, easy, accessible technology called spoofing allows the scammer to make that call or text message number appear to be that of a legitimate company. Right away there's people deferring to authority and now it appears that they actually are authority. The red flag should go off when they tell you you've got to a cryptocurrency ATM to send money or a gift card which are always indications of scams. It's actually a sad commentary that on the IRS website they have a notice that says, we do not take gift cards.

[00:36:14] Bob: We've discussed this on The Perfect Scam before, but it always bears repeating. Criminals use information and circumstance to talk right past the rational parts of our brains to get at the emotional, primal reactions.

[00:36:27] Steve Weisman: We all have this part of our brain called the amygdala. And the amygdala was part of early evolution, and it allowed us to make quick, snap judgments necessary in emergency situations; when that sabretooth tiger was going to jump out at you, even if there were no sabretooth tigers around while people were there. So that's what happens. They create an emergency situation and people's logic goes out the window, and so the jury duty scam has been with us oh, for many years. But it has gotten worse as the technology has gotten better and frankly, scammers being able to communicate it better.

[00:37:07] Bob: So that means people have to be even more prepared to just say no, to disengage, to hang up, to not click and so on.

[00:37:17] Steve Weisman: My motto is, trust me, you can't trust anyone. And the bottom line is in, in cybersecurity we have a standard called the zero trust. You really need to verify anytime you get any kind of a communication that asks you to click on a link, download an attachment, provide information, or make a payment. Even paranoids have enemies. I've gotten e-greeting cards from friends, and I can't trust them. You can't click on the links, so I will contact my friend to see if he really sent it and he will go, yes, my paranoid buddy, that really was from me.

[00:37:50] Bob: It's so interesting, right? It's similar to when they say, "Don't talk to anyone." And talking to anyone is the best thing you can do. Turning off the computer is the best thing you can do. But this advice is like from an upside-down world, and but it's hard to, you're feeling fragile, you're, someone's yelling at you do this, do that, and it's hard to contradict them, right?

[00:38:09] Steve Weisman: Absolutely. And, and now also with AI, the scammers are able to harvest so much information about the people that they're targeting. So if they know who's going to be vulnerable to a tech support scam, they know personal information about these people so that they can really make it more focused, their attack can seem more legitimate.

[00:38:30] Bob: The focus part is very unnerving to me. And when they called Jana, they knew a whole bunch about her, for example, and that makes it much, much more persuasive. And I think that's still one of those sort of brain hacks for people. They don't realize how easy it is for a criminal to just buy or even steal tons of information about the car your drive, your Social Security number, and that all makes it seem more real. And I, it's just, I just think we're not used to that.

[00:38:55] Steve Weisman: No, we're not. Again, going back to my earlier motto; things aren't as bad as you think; they're far worse. There are these data aggregators where they don't even have to harvest the, the scammers don't have to harvest on the internet. They can pay a small fee and get all kinds of personal information that you would think would be protected by these data aggregators. So this information can be misused and those, that, that industry is quite largely unregulated.

[00:39:23] Bob: Okay, but so technology hurts, the spoofing thing is just amazing to me that it still exists, but then also, I think the crypto ATMs have really upped the stakes here. It's one thing to, to get $300 gift cards and scratch them off in a parking lot, but it's another thing to be feeding $100 bills into these machines. Can you talk for a moment about why these Bitcoin ATMs have made things worse?

[00:39:45] Steve Weisman: They really have. A number of states are starting to try and put in legislation to help with this, and there's some pending federal legislation. But I'll give you an example how bad it is. One of the most common scams for everybody, but particularly for seniors who may not be as adept with technology, is the tech support scam where you get a pop-up on your computer, there's a problem, and then you call the, the number on the, on the pop-up. You need to send them money. And recently in Massachusetts there was a senior, about 65 years old. He got this and he actually, he was sending out $10,000 that he was taking to a crypto ATM to put in supposedly to fix his computer. Fortunately, this story actually has a happy ending. There was an off-duty police officer who sees this guy going with a wad of bills in his hand to the crypto ATM, stopped him, introduced himself, and managed to convince him that he was about to be scammed.

[00:40:47] Bob: Okay, so I noticed in a recent piece that you wrote that you said tech support scams are increasing recently. Why, why would that be?

[00:40:54] Steve Weisman: Part of it is tech... we're all using our tech so much, and seniors in particular are getting more into it, but they're not necessarily comfortable with it. And so you do have a lot more tech support scams. What they often will do is instead of just having you make a payment, they'll say, we can help you but we need remote access to your computer. And that's a real problem because you give them the remote access, they're into your computer, they can get your passwords, they can get your credit cards, all kinds of information that's in your computer. And here again, if we just, as you say, slow down, you're not going to get a pop-up from Apple. You're not going to get a pop-up from Microsoft, and they're not going to be telling you that there's a problem that you need to fix. So yeah, if you get something like that they always say, "Don't turn off your computer." That's the best thing you can do. It's because they really haven't made a problem yet on your computer. Turn it off, turn it back on, and you'll avoid the problem.

[00:41:58] Bob: Gosh, that's all, that's a great idea. I noticed that you have a book called, "The Truth About Avoiding Scams." And you can contradict me, but that name suggests that there's a lot of mistruths about avoiding scams out there. So are there?

[00:42:11] Steve Weisman: Yeah, I think there's a lot of misunderstandings in regard to avoiding scams. And people, one thing, thinking that I've got good security software, so it's going to protect me even if I click on a link that's supposedly going to download some malware. And the thing is, the really sophisticated scammers use what they call zero-day defects, and these are vulnerabilities that have not yet been discovered, and they make their, they formulate their malware using those zero-day defects. Once that zero-day defect gets out there and it is used, it takes the security software people at least a month or so before they're able to create some kind of protection there. There is that problem there, and also there are a lot of people, imposter scams are the, are a real big one, and this is posing as often government officials, IRS, security, Social Security Administration, police, or and like in the case of Jana, some are dealing with, with juries. But also companies that we all deal with, Netflix, Amazon. And essentially, it's, even if you get something, recently you're having Amazon Prime Day and it's prime time for scammers who are sending out really believable emails that will say, there's a problem with your order, and people are expecting to have an order. So if they click on that to make, again, things even worse, one of the things is sometimes you'll look at a, a phishing email or even a spear-phishing email you get and if you look at the address of the sender, it has an address that has absolutely nothing to do with Amazon or Netflix or whatever, because it's been part of a botnet of infected computers, of people that don't even know their computers are being infected and you just send this out. But other times the scammers will create email addresses that look perfectly, look perfect. And one of the, one of these instances, these are what's called the Cyrillic alphabet, which is used in Slavic languages, and so their A is slightly different than the A that we usually have in the Anglo alphabet. And I was uh told this, I was shown this, and it must have taken me a full minute before I could even recognize the slight difference in the A. So it's, we have to really learn never to trust any kind of a communication that asks for information, asks you to click on a link, download an attachment unless you've absolutely confirmed it.

[00:44:43] Bob: So for example, it might be bank.com, but the a will be the Cyrillic a, so it'll be the wrong site.

[00:44:50] Steve Weisman: Exactly. And it looks really good.

[00:44:54] Bob: It looks really good, but also, criminals have made these attacks so streamlined, so systematic that well frankly, the criminals don't have to be so smart.

[00:45:06] Steve Weisman: The Interpol once estimated, I'm sure there are more now, that there are only about 100 cybercriminal geniuses in the world who create the really sophisticated malware and ransomware, malware that's used in the delivery systems. Their business model has become, they go on the Dark Web and there are sites there that criminals can go to and buy and lease the, this, this malware as far, and as well as technical assistance. You've got very unsophisticated criminals who are able to use the most sophisticated technology to target the vulnerable people.

[00:45:43] Bob: So this is software as a service, but the criminal version.

[00:45:46] Steve Weisman: Exactly.

[00:45:48] Bob: Here's what Steve wants you to focus on to protect yourself.

[00:45:52] Steve Weisman: I'd say, first of all, one of the things that we all should do is we should freeze our credit and do credit monitoring. Because when it comes to credit freezes, if someone has your Social Security number and people can get your Social Security number, it can be involved, no matter how good you are at protecting your own security and safety and privacy, you're only as safe as the places with the weakest security, particularly if you have say, you give your Social Security number as an identifier.

[00:46:24] Bob: What other kinds of things do you tell people?

[00:46:27] Steve Weisman: The biggest things are again, when it comes to any kind of communication, you've got to confirm. You, you really can't accept anything at face value that asks for personal information, click on a link, or download an attachment. You've got to do that. Anytime you are asked to pay for something by way of cryptocurrency or a gift card or demanding it wired, you've got to then be looking for it's a scam. But the biggest thing is what you said earlier, Bob; we just need to slow down, get our amygdala out of the equation, and logically consider and verify before you do anything.

[00:47:04] Bob: The criminals, of course, they know you are out there giving this kind of advice, and they have these countermeasures in place, right, so you, they might say you have this jury duty. Believe me, look up my name. And when you google their name up will come what looks like a government phone number and address and what not. So they're pretty good at even having the answer for verify this.

[00:47:26] Steve Weisman: They are, and particularly now with, with AI so it, it has to be, you really have to be more careful.

[00:47:32] Bob: And is there anything that we can do when it comes to our emotions? All of us, when we hear that someone we love is in trouble, we want to help, and if we learn that we've broken a law, we want to abide by the law. What can we do to help with our emotional reactions?

[00:47:45] Steve Weisman: That's a tough one, Bob, because it's one thing to intellectually know we should slow down, it's another thing to know that a how to do that.

[00:47:55] Bob: Yeah, and sometimes I think talking to a friend, a, or another person, any second person even when they say, especially when they tell you not to, can help you with that speed bump. What do you think about that?

[00:48:04] Steve Weisman: Yeah, totally agree with you. And here again, it doesn't even have be some kind of an expert, because you've got someone who is not emotionally involved, they're going to be able to more readily recognize this, and this is one of the things that FINRA, which regulates the securities brokers, when new accounts are opened, you can name or ask, do you want a trusted contact? So when you, so let's say, are going to transfer money from a brokerage account and they have a feeling that this might not be, they will contact that trusted contact to maybe slow it down.

[00:48:38] Bob: I love the trusted contact idea. I think that's really useful and we should all have a battle buddy in this world of scams.

[00:48:44] Steve Weisman: I agree.

[00:48:45] Bob: Speed bumps, right? We need speed bumps.

[00:48:47] Steve Weisman: Yeah, and that's exactly it. And with so many scams, that's it. Slow down and think.

[00:48:54] Bob: Slow down and think. That's so important, but sometimes easier said than done. The folks at the Fraud Watch Network have been thinking a lot about how to get that message out, and after a lot of research, they've come up with a catchy phrase that you'll start hearing from me more and more. And I hope you pick it up too. Pause. Reflect. Protect. If you grew up in the U.S., you may remember learning in grade school what to do if your clothes catch fire: Stop, drop and roll. Pause Reflect Protect is kind of like that. The goal here is something the aviation industry knows as an "active pause" when things get a bit dicey, when it feels like there's time pressure, take a deep breath, take an extra moment, take an active pause before taking action. Say you get a call and it sounds like your grandchild is in jail and needs bail money. Don't do anything right away. Instead, take an active pause. Step back and reflect on the situation before you do anything. Pause...Reflect....Protect. I hope those three words will stick with you, and the people you care about. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan

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[00:50:18] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. To learn more about the Fraud Watch Network volunteers and the fraud survivors they've helped, check out the new video series, Fraud Wars, on AARP's YouTube channel. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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