Bonus: Meet the Fraud Fighters Taking on Crypto Kiosk Scams

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[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Joyce Beck: The lady was actually on the phone with her scammer, she had $2500 in her hand and he's giving her the directions to put the money into the crypto machine, she stops and she said, "Wait a minute. There's a sign on this machine that says, 'STOP - This could be a scam.' Are you a scammer?”

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[00:00:31] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:13] Bob: Crypto ATMs. You've heard for months on The Perfect Scam how these machines are used to rip people off in dramatic and maddening ways. Well today we're going to share some good news. Good news? Let me be honest, sometimes it can be hard to live and work in the fraud world. Truth be told, a lot of stories are sad and really frustrating. Not today. Sometimes things work, and sometimes that work can be fun. Let's meet Joyce Beck, an AARP Volunteer Coordinator in Nebraska, who spends her time visiting convenience stores and gas stations with a group of other volunteers all in the name of warning people that crypto ATMs are a menace.

[00:00:58] Joyce Beck: So we had a vest on that said we were part of The Fraud Fighters, and we had Sheriff Hanson on it, and they knew we were coming, so that helped. But a group of us, about 4, would come in there. And we were so well-received. They smiled when they saw us and they had their sign up and they wanted to tell us their story. They wanted to tell somebody what they were seeing and so they were very open to us.

[00:01:49] Bob: Um, Joyce I, I know this is a serious subject, but also, I don't know, to me I'm picturing four of you walking into a store having a nice conversation with a clerk. This sounds like it's a lot of fun, too.

[00:02:01] Joyce Beck: It was a lot of fun, and of course when you're, you're working with friends, and I found out that if you walk in the store with a smile on your face, they'll probably always smile back at you. And if you ask, you're just real friendly and you're not intimidating at all, you're just there to help them, that made a big difference too. But no, we had a lot of fun doing it, and of course we always have to have coffee before and lunch after and so we, all of the volunteers just turn it into a social event, and we get to know each other better, and it's just, it's just fun.

[00:02:39] Bob: And it's for a really good cause, right?

[00:02:41] Joyce Beck: It's a very good cause, you have a good feeling at the end of the day that what you did made a difference, and that's what it's all about, just making a difference.

[00:02:51] Bob: For a good cause, making a difference. All in between coffee and lunch. What's not to love? But let's backtrack. What were these volunteer fraud fighters doing at those gas stations and convenience stores? Here's Todd Stubbendieck to explain a little more. He is State Director for AARP Nebraska.

[00:03:12] Todd Stubbendieck: Yeah, these scammers are always one step ahead of us in terms of how they find ways to separate people from their money. The latest tool they like to use is to send people to these cryptocurrency kiosks. They like it because once they get people to put their money in that machine and transfer it to their digital wallet, it's gone forever, and it's largely untraceable at that point. So we've really ramped up our efforts to try to educate the public, not only on the scams, but the tools these scammers are using.

[00:03:42] Bob: Crypto kiosks. Bitcoin ATMs, they're sometimes called. They have become a favorite tool for criminals. It feels like pretty much every story we've done on The Perfect Scam recently involves a victim driving to one of these machines and shoving $100 bills into them until they're exhausted. The stories are so sad, but all the more frustrating because many people there is no legitimate reason for these crypto kiosks. People who want to buy crypto can just do it online for far lower fees. Some law enforcement investigations have found that virtually all the transactions at certain kiosks involve fraud.

[00:04:26] Todd Stubbendieck: So with these scams, often you're, you're getting a call or perhaps a text even, or there's someone who's reaching out that you don't know on social media. Oftentimes, they're claiming to be a government entity of some sort, and they're, they're wanting you to take urgent action to take care of some problems you've never heard of before. And they can claim to be law enforcement, they can claim to be Social Security Administration, or even the IRS, and they're telling you all you have to do to take care of this problem is get cash and then go to one of these machines and deposit it; it will take care of this issue. It could not be more simple. No legitimate government entity, business, or friend would ever ask you to use one of these machines to take care of a debt or to take care of a problem. So if someone is asking you to do that, hang up. Call back. If they claim they're the sheriff's office, hang up and call the sheriff's office directly and see whether it's true or not. If they're claiming to be the Social Security Administration, hang up and call the Social Security Administration, but the truth is, none of these entities would ever contact you on the phone out of the blue and tell you you needed to pay money.

[00:05:37] Bob: When did you first start seeing an issue with these machines, roughly?

[00:05:40] Todd Stubbendieck: We got involved in this issue probably in November of 2024. We had begun to hear reports about these machines being used by scammers, and actually we were working with the city of Omaha. They had a local ordinance. They had a city councilmember who had family who had been targeted by one of these scams, and she wanted to do something about it. And so she was working on the ordinance in the city of Omaha and had partnered with the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office in that area to do a city ordinance that requires all of these cryptocurrency machines in the city of Omaha to carry a warning sign to let people know that these machines are often used for a scam. And so if you're on the phone with someone who's trying, that you don't know, who's trying to get you to transfer money to them, it's most likely a scam. Hang up and call the sheriff's office. So that was an ordinance that they were working on, and we stepped in and helped to get that passed.

[00:06:40] Bob: Meanwhile, AARP continued to advocate for more legislation regulating these machines.

[00:06:47] Todd Stubbendieck: In January of 2025, we had a bill that was introduced that would regulate these machines at the state level for the first time. It set daily transaction limits on these machines, and also a provision that we are very proud of; it actually requires that if a new customer is a victim of a scam on one of these machines and reports to law enforcement, the cryptocurrency company's actually required to reimburse them the money they lost. So we went from this local ordinance directly into a state bill that we also were able to pass last year and, and then we replicated the same sort of success and passed the local ordinance both in the city of Lincoln and the city of Grand Island, Nebraska. So we've had quite a bit of state and local advocacy success working on this issue.

[00:07:35] Bob: So within just a few months, there were new state and local laws governing crypto kiosks. But one of the provisions in the local laws required something new and that it would require immediate action, that warning label.

[00:07:52] Todd Stubbendieck: Yeah, I think Omaha was the first city that sort of came up with this idea about a warning sign on it. And now I think other states, this is what's great about AARP; if someone has a good idea, we share it. So I think it's happening in other places as well. And so the other great thing that came out of this effort was that we were then able also to create a partnership working with law enforcement with the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office, and then in the other local communities where we worked in, we also sort of did a law enforcement angle to this to help improve the notification and the enforcement of the ordinance.

[00:08:27] Bob: Okay, so Todd, I'm guessing you passed, the city passes this ordinance, you've got to put stickers on all these machines. Now you have a problem. How do you get the stickers on the machines? What were the discussions like?

[00:08:38] Todd Stubbendieck: Yeah, so the ordinance passed and in Omaha it was the county sheriff who was deeply involved in this. Part of the reason was, it was personal for him. These scammers were actually claiming to be the Douglas County Sheriff’s Office, and they were actually using the deputies real names, so people were googling, they were finding, they were very sophisticated. And then this made him mad, and so he's the one who took on the enforcement responsibility. He came back to me and said, "Todd, we need to do the enforcement here in Omaha to make sure these stickers are up, and I just don't have the deputy sort of folks that can go out and visit all of these locations. Is there any way we can partner with AARP?" And we jumped at the chance.

[00:09:21] Bob: We jumped at the chance, and this is how we get to Joyce and those teams of fraud fighters.

[00:09:28] Joyce Beck: I'm the President of the Volunteers for AARP. And one of my main passions is advocacy. And I love to see us pass the bills like Todd was talking about and actually seeing the impact on citizens, and how it changes the life of seniors to the positive all the time. And so I have a lot of different roles, like in community action team, I'm very involved in them where we do education of different topics to seniors in all the different towns in Nebraska. I'm part of the speaker's bureau where we, that also helps get word out on different topics that we have. So a lot of education, but my love and my passion is advocacy. And so I got really involved in AARP in the beginning with the cost of high, the high cost of medications, and from there, I just kept going because I, I love the idea of protecting seniors against fraud, and passing those bills like Todd was talking about.

[00:10:34] Bob: It sounds amazing. How long have you been doing this?

[00:10:36] Joyce Beck: So I started out as a volunteer because my husband passed away five years ago and I needed an avenue to help with the high cost of medications, and I called all over every organization I could think of and only Todd Stubbendieck with AARP which said, we, that's right, what we do is we fight for the high cost of medication. And so I got involved with AARP probably in 2022 I would say, 2021, 2022.

[00:11:08] Bob: That's great.

[00:11:10] Bob: So Joyce is in charge of these volunteers and when the sheriff's department says it needs help enforcing this new law, Todd and Joyce know just what to do.

[00:11:20] Todd Stubbendieck: And so what we did is we gathered about 20 of our volunteers in the Omaha area and Joyce joined this effort as well, and first of all we went to the sheriff's office and they did a briefing for our volunteers about the sort of scams they were seeing to educate them on this. We then divided up in teams, and sent them out to about 75 retail locations where we knew that these signs existed. And at this point, the ordinance had been put in place for about 6 months, so they were supposed to have the signs up. Our volunteers would go into the store, find the machine, and make note of whether they had the sign up or not. If they didn't have the sign, they provided the sign to the store and said, and some information about the ordinance and said, "Here's the ordinance. This sign needs to be on your machine, it's required now." And then we took that information and took it back to the sheriff.

[00:12:10] Joyce Beck: And then when we went convenience store to convenience store or wherever these cryptocurrency machines were and putting the sign, having, informing the storeowner to put the sign on the machine; that just makes such a difference. And I, the more I'm in it, the more I want to be in it.

[00:12:30] Bob: So wearing vests with the sheriff's name, full of morning coffee, the band of fraud fighters visit every crypto kiosk in Omaha.

[00:12:41] Joyce Beck: And we went in thinking that we were educating the storeowners about the signs. Most of all of the places we went, the signs were up. And the storeowners really educated us about fraud, because they would see it in their store all the time, and for example, in one store a man kept coming in with big stacks of money, and he ended up putting in his life savings, his retirement account, and he mortgaged his home. He just kept coming to that crypto machine because he believed his grandson was in trouble in another country and he needed that money to save his grandson. Did not realize that it was a scam 'til he had lost everything.

[00:13:28] Bob: That's so tragic.

[00:13:29] Joyce Beck: You know another time when we went to a convenience store was a romance scam, and so every week a lady would come in there with $300 on a certain day of the week, and put that $300 in there for her lover, who she'd never met, and never talked to, but got a lot of text messages from, and so they could not talk her out of that either.

[00:13:56] Bob: As Joyce said, most of the stores they visited were in compliance, but not all.

[00:14:02] Todd Stubbendieck: Like I said, this is about 75 locations, approximately 20% of those locations didn't have the sign up. So we gave that to the sheriff, and then he was able with just those locations to send his deputies out to make sure that after our visit that sign went up. He was thrilled that we were able to cut down his workload and make sure that that happened and to make sure that they were actually following through on those requirements.

[00:14:28] Bob: Meanwhile, after those 75 visits, Todd starts getting word that the warning signs really are having an impact.

[00:14:36] Todd Stubbendieck: I will say the sheriff says that sort of since this ordinance and since the signs of have gone up, their office has seen a 20% decline in investigations of cryptocurrency kiosk fraud, and he credits AARP with a lot of that success.

[00:14:51] Bob: So it really did work.

[00:14:53] Todd Stubbendieck: It did work. I actually talked to a couple just this week who were in the midst of a scam and saw the sign and hung up and called the sheriff's office.

[00:15:03] Bob: Oh...

[00:15:03] Todd Stubbendieck: So it actually does work.

[00:15:06] Bob: The fraud fighters don't stop in Omaha. Remember, two other cities, Lincoln and Grand Island, passed similar ordinances, so off they go.

[00:15:18] Joyce Beck: Then when we went on to Lincoln the signs had not been, they had just been printed, and so we were delivering[A1]  them and informing the clerks that they needed to put them up. So that was a little bit different. They weren't already up, but the clerks, they knew about the ordinance, they had gotten a letter from the sheriff and so they knew about it and here is the sign, and they wanted to put it up right away and we watched a lot of them just stop everything and put it up.

[00:15:50] Bob: Wow.

[00:15:50] Joyce Beck: And they too had stories to tell us about, "Yeah, I'm glad to put this up, 'cause I see this all the time and I feel like there's scamming going on," and they also had stories to tell us. And then from there we went to Grand Island, and got the ordinance passed in Grand Island, and in Grand Island they chose to do it a little bit different. We had a deputy with us, and so was actually made it easier to inform them about things. And the sheriff then also heard stories because in Grand Island they had more stories about what was going on. For example, in one place that we stopped, the clerk said, "I know this lady was scammed. She came in with $200 and she said her grandson needed $200 for gas to get from St. Paul, Nebraska, to Grand Island. That's only maybe 20 miles away, so you don't need $200. And what car holds $200 worth of gas?" So the clerk said, "That doesn't make sense to me," and tried to talk to the lady, "That's not logical that your grandson would need all of that money to get 20 miles. You must, it must be a scammer." But the lady said, "No, it's not a scammer. I've got to do it. My grandson's in trouble." So she put the $200 in, but the clerk was so uncomfortable about it, she had a way to get the receipt for that $200, and she asked the lady for her name, and she kept that information in the drawer. So when we came in and explained that that sign needed to be up, she wanted that sign up. And I had a deputy sheriff with me, and she started telling him the story about the scammer she saw. And then informed the clerk and the deputy that AARP was active in passing this law that the currency companies have to pay you back if you've been a victim of scam. And neither one of them knew that, so they were going to take the receipt and see if they could get the money back. It had to be in a certain timeframe, so many days prior to you, or you had to inform the sheriff within a certain timeframe. So they were going to check on the timeframe and, and that way they were both educated that if that ever happens, you can have an avenue to get that money back.

[00:18:27] Bob: What a great story, and hopefully the deputy was able to call and follow up with that victim.

[00:18:34] Bob: Along the way, Joyce hears more stories about the warning labels working.

[00:18:39] Joyce Beck: For example, in Grand Island the sheriff reported to us that there was a sign that it says[A2] , "Stop" like a stop sign and then, "You could be a victim of a scam." And a lady was actually on the phone with her scammer, she had $2500 in her hand because she'd gone to the ATM and got her money out, and the scammer was telling her what crypto machine to take it to and how to put the money in. And as she's talking to him on the phone and he's giving her the directions to put the money into the crypto machine, she stops and she said, "Wait a minute. There's a sign on this machine that says, 'STOP - This could be a scam.' Are you a scammer?" And the scammer said, "Oh no, just ignore that. I don't know why they put those signs up." And she said, "No, I believe you're a scammer." And she hung up and kept her money. So the signs do work and...

[00:19:40] Bob: What a great story.

[00:19:40] Joyce Beck: ... we hear real life stories how they work.

[00:19:45] Bob: Of course, not every story they hear is peaches and cream. Not every storeowner is that enthusiastic about helping consumers.

[00:19:54] Bob: There must have been a situation where somebody walked into a place and the guy said, "What's this? You're not putting this on my sticker, who are you?" Has any of that happened?

[00:20:04] Todd Stubbendieck: Yes. Joyce clearly had some great stores to visit, and I'd like to, to take my business to them. We did hear some stories that weren't so flattering, and I went to a few places myself and encountered some resistance at some of the stores that we went to. I think the other thing that was interesting as we got reports back from our volunteers is, it was either a sort of one or two approaches. One of them was, I think Joyce has done such a great job of telling that story of the clerk saying, "When we see someone at that machine that clearly doesn't belong at that machine, we intervene, because we know they're being scammed." We also had volunteers who were told by store clerks, "I've been told by the owner of the store, no matter what's happening on that machine, I'm not to get involved. I'm not to intervene. That, that's not my job."

[00:20:53] Bob: To be sure, they find a lot of storeowners who want do the right thing.

[00:20:58] Todd Stubbendieck: I talked to one storeowner who, you know, had the machine in a store, and had someone who was a victim of the fraud in the store, and he felt horrible about it. So he went out of his way that every time someone used the machine, he was intervening and saying, "Hey, just want to make sure, you know what you're doing." He eventually made the decision that it just, the kar--, he didn't like the karma, so he was getting rid of the machine, but he was actually worried about doing that. He says, "I'm scared that they're all going to go somewhere else where they're not acting like me, where they're not, they're going to find a store where the owner doesn't care and doesn't inquire about it." But in the end, he made the decision that he didn't want the machine in his store anymore.

[00:21:36] Bob: Good for him. Yeah, yeah.

[00:21:38] Bob: And some of them know to be wary of the machines out of self-interest.

[00:21:43] Joyce Beck: And I understand that one scammer called to one of the gas stations and said he was the owner, and he, the attendant was supposed to take all the money out of the cash register and put it in a Bitcoin machine. So as he's doing that, the other clerk says, "What are you doing?" And he said, "The owner called." No, the owner didn't call. So they called the owner and he said, "No, I didn't call." So I think that's why the owner was so open in the stores I was in because a scammer had actually tried to pretend they were him and get their clerks to put their money into the Bitcoin machine. So I think it was an actual event that made him so open to putting these signs up.

[00:22:26] Bob: It was personal for him, right?

[00:22:28] Joyce Beck: Yeah, it just so happened it was a personal story that helped us on some of those.

[00:22:34] Bob: So Todd and Joyce are convinced these warning signs, the ones they were so instrumental in getting placed on machines, that they really do help. But the signs are only part of the solution.

[00:22:48] Bob: One of the thoughts that I had, I believe this is a voluntary effort, but a lot of places like Home Depots and big construction stores started putting up stickers at their checkout counters when we had gift card sale problems and never had any sense whether they were working or not. I, I don't mean to change the conversation from kiosks to gift cards, but I am interested that there are cases at least where warning signs really are effective. So can you talk any more about that?

[00:23:12] Todd Stubbendieck: Yeah, I think, I don't know on the gift card thing. That's something that we also passed here in Nebraska as well. I sometimes worry the gift card thing is, everything's so busy at that checkout that I don't know if that's effective. I also don't know if they're at the place where people are picking up those gift cards if there's a sign there. But totally do applaud those companies that did that on their own, and that's terrific. I didn't know if these crypto signs would work, and I don't think they're 100%, uh but the fact that we are getting anecdotal evidence of folks that are like in the middle of this scam and then seeing the sign, I think the quality of the sign is important. I think, I think that you, when it says STOP, and when it says, and it describes a scenario in which they are currently in the middle of, I, I think that's an effective sign rather than just a lot of verbiage saying, be careful with these machines. I'm just not sure that works. And again, for us the whole thing is these criminals get folks in that sense of emergency where you have to take action fast to deal with this problem. Our whole thought is if we can provide an opportunity that allows a person to stop and think, uh they will more times than not arrive at the conclu--, you know this just doesn't make sense. And here I am on this sign given a number to call just to make sure that this is right, and so again, we hope that it, it works for people and gives them that opportunity to pause and, and stop the scam.

[00:24:41] Bob: Yeah, I totally agree. The quality of the sign matters a lot.

[00:24:45] Todd Stubbendieck: Yep.

[00:24:47] Bob: And meanwhile, as another prong to help solve this problem, Todd now has a well-trained troop of volunteers out there fighting for the cause.

[00:24:57] Todd Stubbendieck: Think about it this way. I now have 30 to 40 Bitcoin kiosk fraud experts that are volunteers for me. They understand this issue. They, I guarantee, every time anyone walks into a convenience store, they're looking for that machine and they're making sure that sign on there. And they know what to do if the sign, sign's not on there. And they're out there educating the members of their family and their community about these scams. For us, not only was it the great thing that we're out there helping people, but the fact that we're educating and energizing volunteers, this is just such win-win for our state office.

[00:25:32] Bob: A win-win for Nebraska indeed. And now the crypto kiosk problem is wider than Nebraska, of course, and AARP is advocating for regulation around the country and we have good news to share on that front too. Francoise Cleveland, AARP's Government Affairs Director, will explain.

[00:25:52] Bob: Well when did you first notice that these things were a problem?

[00:25:55] Francoise Cleveland: It was flagged to us by our Fraud Watch Network, so I began in this job at the end of 2023, beginning of 2024, and the Fraud Watch Network contacted us and said, hey, we are really seeing an increase in the amount of fraud that we are getting reported by victims and others calling into our helpline about this thing called a cryptocurrency kiosk. Is there anything that you guys can do about that? And I honestly had never heard of a cryptocurrency kiosk before that point and a lot of other people hadn't either. At that point we, we started talking with folks. We started talking with legislators, we started talking with regulators, victims, and found that these machines were largely unregulated across the United States, and that the reports of fraud were rising exponentially and we decided that we needed to do something about it, so we started talking, like I said, with folks that had, that had ideas. California and Connecticut at that point, had passed something legislatively. We looked at their legislation, talked with some good folks in Connecticut about their law and how it was working. We talked to the industry and about what was happening, what they were seeing at that point, and we came up with a list of tenets of what, what we thought would make good legislation to, to stop the fraud happening at these kiosks. Then when we talked to legislators, we found that like I had to begin with that they had no idea what one was either. And we started asking them, okay, go into your phone and type in "Bitcoin ATM near me," and we found that in most situations, unless individuals were really out in rural America, that there is usually one within a mile or maybe even in the same building that they were in and they had no idea.

[00:28:02] Bob: Wow. So legislators, their office building or their complex or whatnot, you're going to them and you're saying, we need to restrict how these machines work. The victims are losing money and they'd say, not only do I not know what, what you're talking about, but this is happening right under my nose and I don't know about it? Wow.

[00:28:20] Francoise Cleveland: Right.

[00:28:21] Bob: Okay, when you first started to come up with ways to control these things, what were some of the ideas you kicked around?

[00:28:27] Francoise Cleveland: The first one and one of the most important ones are daily transaction limits. We heard stories, just devastating stories, about victims going into a convenience store and putting in tens of thousands of dollars at a time. There was one older lady that the convenience store clerk actually brought her a stool to sit on because it was taking her so long to feed those hundred-dollar bills into the machine. and it, yeah, it was just, it was so devastating that the stories that, that we heard. So for those individuals who have lost the money, how could we help them and the first one was those daily transaction limits. Then after that, we looked at refunds came to mind. It was refunds of fees that we thought might be where we would start from, and then after talking to the industry, some of the folks in the industry was telling us they already gave full refunds for victims of fraud, and we thought that sounds like a pretty good idea. We are going to ask for that as well so that if a individual loses their life savings into these machines, and the, they were a victim of fraud, how can we make them whole again? So those refunds. The next thing, being regulated as a money transmitter in the state. Right now these kiosk operators have to be registered as a money service business with FinCEN, but they weren't regulated on the state level and the, the registration with FinCEN is just that, a registration and they, they do have to abide by some of the bank secrecy act type of protections. But largely for the most part, these kiosk operators are not regulated so when you go into your local grocery story and you see the kiosk there, no one's checking on them to make sure that they are following fraud procedures, fraud prevention procedures that, that anybody is doing any kind of user verification or just keeping an eye on what, what's happening at the kiosk. So registering as a money transmitter was, like I said, another big component of any kind of good legislation we felt would happen at the legislatures.

[00:30:57] Bob: And finally, AARP wants warning labels put on every kiosk.

[00:31:03] Francoise Cleveland: Making sure that if someone goes to the kiosk to use it, that there's the fraud warning saying, hey, just so you know, if you are getting asked to put your money into this kiosk for as someone saying they're from the government, especially like Social Security, the IRS, or maybe from your bank, that it is a good possibility that you're a victim of a scam right now and stop what you're doing and independently verify that someone legitimate is asking you for this money for a legitimate purpose.

[00:31:38] Bob: As of today, about 20 states have now passed legislation regulating crypto kiosks in one way or another. But some jurisdictions have gone even further. That's a bit of a dramatic twist.

[00:31:50] Francoise Cleveland: Like I said, when we got started, in 2023, there was two states that had regulated these kiosks, and that was California and Connecticut. We got involved in 2024, and we were able to pass legislation in Minnesota and Vermont. Last year in 2025, 13 additional states passed something, and then this year, Indiana actually passed a full ban on those kiosks in their state and the law was effective immediately. So as soon as the governor's signature went across that paper, those machines were illegal in the state. And how that happened was we have been working for the strongest protection in every state. We worked with local legislators to find out what's right for their state. When we first started working, we knew that fraud was happening a lot through these, but we didn't know what they were being used for besides that. We didn't know the extensiveness of that fraud. We hadn't seen a lot of data. There was some from the FTC and from the FBI, but once we started doing our research, we've, like I said, we've talked to a lot of folks. We, we found that path forward where we thought we could help with a lot of the protections that we just talked about. But since then, the fraud reports from like the attorneys general out of Iowa and DC and Massachusetts, we found that we just hadn't seen a, a solid case for why these were being used, and as we were working in Indiana, the legislators, we were so proud of them, they saw the problem, they understood the significance of the problem, and they said, you know what, we are not going to have these in our state anymore, and they actually amended the bill near the end of the process from a very strong bill to a ban totally in the state. And we were like, o--, okay, yes! We, this is where we're going and we, and like I said, we were very proud that the legislators saw the importance of this, and when the governor signed that, it, it was really just a banner day for the residents in their state to know that their governor and their legislators care about what's happening to the residents in their state and making sure that they have the protections they need against fraud.

[00:34:27] Bob: But also generally, that is not how legislation works, right? It's much more of a, it's like, how do we make this sausage sort of thing, and what do we come out with in incremental steps and whatnot, so it's remarkable to me, you know.

[00:34:38] Francoise Cleveland: It was remarkable. When my local staff called me and said, "You will never guess what happened." I thought she was going to tell me that they had stripped the bill, that they had, the bill had been voted down or something like that. And she said, "No, they replaced the entire bill with a ban."

[00:34:59] Bob: Hmm, wow. So like the next day were there TV shows, like TV news video of these machines getting yanked out of convenience stores?

[00:35:06] Francoise Cleveland: I, I don't know, but I do know that the local police department out of Evansville, was on the ground the very next day looking to be sure that the, the kiosks were inoperable, that I think some of them had signs on them saying that they were no longer in service, and I think they were giving them 7 days to remove them from the premises.

[00:35:27] Bob: Sometimes it feels like it can take forever to pass a law, even if an overwhelming majority supports it. So Indiana's ban is quite a success story. But so are these armies of AARP volunteers going around the country doing the hard store by store work of trying to protect people.

[00:35:49] Francoise Cleveland: Oh, I think it's fabulous what they're doing there. It's really a partnership. I think in, in fraud, and protections in general that we have our law enforcement that really enforces that law, but they can't do it all on their own. They don't have the manpower to be sure everything is happening, but having that friendly face coming in, and they call themselves the Fraud Fighters, they go in, make sure that the kiosks in each of the stores have the warning signs, talk with the local staff there about fraud that's happening, how to prevent it, and you know, how to recognize it mostly though. If you see somebody come into your convenience store and they're on the phone, and they look agitated or worried or and they won't put the phone down, ask them if they need help. Those types of things. But having other faces come in and really spread the message of what's happening locally with fraud, getting people to talk with their friends and neighbors about what's happening with fraud, that is one of the, a good protection for individuals. I think sometimes like my family gets tired of hearing from me, 'cause I'm like, oh, did you hear about this? Did you hear about that? And they...

[00:37:02] Bob: I get that, yeah.

[00:37:02] Francoise Cleveland: They, oh yeah, but these fraud fighters, these volunteers that help on the ground to make sure that people are protected and people know and these clear warning signs are at each of these kiosks is so important, and we're so happy with the partnership that we have with local law enforcement there in Omaha as well as all over the nation to make sure that folks are protected. It's just incredible.

[00:37:28] Bob: And it's not just Nebraska.

[00:37:32] Francoise Cleveland: Yeah, so in North Carolina is another great example. They have actually produced a handout that are taking into the local stores that have kiosks. There's no uh state law there yet. They're working towards a law this year, maybe next year depending on how things work with legislature there, but they are going in now and talking with the owners of stores, clerks, and they have the, this fraud education materials that they're leaving behind so that those folks know what's going on in their stores. I think, especially at the clerk level, they, they have not heard about how serious this, this crime is happening, like how often this is happening and the seriousness of it and how much money people are losing in these machines, how much is stolen from them. And so that, again, that education is so important. Over in Illinois, they have the fraud fighting Fraudlettes, that, that are doing the same type of thing that's going into the stores and again, talking with the employees about what's happening and the warning signs and what to say to somebody that goes into a store that looks like they might be under some kind of distress.

[00:38:53] Bob: The Fraudlettes.

[00:38:54] Francoise Cleveland: Yes.

[00:38:55] Bob: That's great. (chuckles) If they have t-shirts, I want one.

[00:38:59] Francoise Cleveland: Me too.

[00:39:00] Bob: AARP is working to make life harder on criminals and better for consumers and victims in other ways too.

[00:39:07] Francoise Cleveland: Yes, so crypto kiosks are just one payment method that criminals will use to get money from you. So AARP is working on protective measures on, in different fronts. So we work on gift card fraud prevention. We work on payment fraud, like your peer-to-peer app type of fraud. We work on deed fraud is another big one that we're hearing a lot about. And then aside from that, how the money transfers from the victim to the criminal, also, how do we make those victims whole again? So last year in Minnesota, we passed the first Consumer Fraud Restitution Fund, which is basically a fund that is used when a victim cannot get the money back from whoever stole it from them in these types of scams. So the fund is set up so they can actually get money back to the victim when the money is unrecoverable from where it was stolen. So we've got that, and then there's the Securities Fraud Restitution Fund too. Nevada passed that last year, and that's dealing specifically with investment fraud. Past that we're also working for getting money into the hands of law enforcement to help in their investigation. Now especially with cryptocurrency, the blockchain analytics and the tools that law enforcement needs to, to trace the cryptocurrency transactions, to freeze the wallets, to track the money to a point where they might be able to recover the funds that were stolen, it's expensive. And it, and it's, the training involved is time-consuming. So getting money into the hands of local law enforcement to be able to do that is significant for them. And then just getting more folks, more law enforcement working on these matters as well. So there's a lot of different areas though that we're working on in the advocacy side. Of course we have our Fraud Watch Network that does a lot of the education, a lot of our state offices do education on fraud. We have our helpline, just all sorts of, there are so many pieces to the puzzle in this that, that we need to work on and to get to the point where we can really make a difference in fighting against fraud.

[00:41:39] Bob: And there certainly are a lot of puzzles too.

[00:41:42] Francoise Cleveland: Yesh, that's true.

[00:41:43] Bob: Wow. I'm so glad that you're doing this work, and it does feel to me like in so many of these areas basically it's just frustration feels like you're banging your head against the wall. It does seem like in the crypto kiosk world, progress is being made. Would you agree?

[00:41:56] Francoise Cleveland: I agree, yes. It's, I think like from an advocacy standpoint, to have somebody like me or one of our, the staff at our AARP offices across the states, when they're speaking to a legislator, and the light turns on, and the legislator understands that this problem is serious and something needs to be done, and not only that, but I'm going to be a strong advocate to make sure that you know, that their constituents are not going to be a victim of fraud on their watch, and they fight with us and that you have things happen like we did in Indiana where not only is this not good enough, we are going to go all the way and make sure these kiosks are not around so that the criminals can't steal money from my people in my district. I think it's an incredible feeling to see that happen.

[00:42:50] Bob: And Joyce will tell you, it's an incredible feeling for volunteers to go get coffee in the morning with friends, and then spend the day working to help people.

[00:43:00] Joyce Beck: Oh my, I cannot say enough good things about AARP Nebraska, I absolutely cannot. And I was a hospital CEO, and so I was a leader for many years and I know what it takes to motivate people and in Nebraska and in AARP, even nationwide, I am so inspired by the leaders in Nebraska and who I meet in Washington DC. Everybody is, you're working with such topnotch leaders, and I say that as someone who, I've been a leader, so I know what it takes, and these are exceptional people. So number one, on the top of AARP all the way through, you're working with the best possible people you can ever work with in your life. And the volunteers that I work with are the same way. I have never met so many professional people that are all on the same mission, and it's, they're easy to work with, they want to make a difference, they're driven, and then they're motivated by the leadership of AARP. And I don't know how you get a better volunteer experience than that.

[00:44:14] Bob: That just sounds so lovely, so lovely that I need to get my way to Nebraska so I can have coffee with all of you some morning, I'm sure I would love that.

[00:44:23] Bob: So Joyce wanted to make a pitch to others who might want to get involved.

[00:44:27] Joyce Beck: Well I think I would like to talk to people who perhaps want to be a volunteer or they want to get more involved. When you see the number of scams drop in Omaha, and you know that you put a sign up and someone was saved $2500, it, there's just nothing more rewarding. And there's no thank you that can exceed the results that you see through the volunteer work that you do with AARP. It's absolutely a amazing situation to be a volunteer. It's very rewarding, and I just could not encourage people enough to get involved with this organization.

[00:45:12] Bob: I know you don't need it, but I'm going to personally thank you anyway, because I know that you, you do have to get up in the morning and get dressed and go somewhere when you could be doing something else with your time, but you're doing this. And so I think that's just great, so thank you.

[00:45:24] Joyce Beck: You're welcome.

[00:45:25] Bob: I'm not kidding. Next time I'm in Nebraska I'm going to go on one of these volunteer trips with you, or at least for lunch anyway.

[00:45:31] Joyce Beck: Oh yes!

[00:45:32] Todd Stubbendieck: We'll find a way to, to get you involved. We might make you do some work first before you get lunch. We usually you know...

[00:45:38] Bob: That is fair, that is fair.

[00:45:39] Joyce Back: Oh yeah. We wouldn't want to feed you first.

(chuckles)

[00:45:44] Bob: You guys know my scams.

[00:45:46] Joyce Beck: Yeah.

(chuckles)

[00:45:50] Bob: For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:45:58] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

(MUSIC OUTRO)

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