Gas Station Employee Stops a Crypto Kiosk Scam

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[00:00:02] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Ellen: She then told me that because I had missed the court date, that they had a warrant out for my arrest and to avoid being put in jail I had to pay the bond to avoid being jailed, and that bond amounted to 50% of my loan under the PPP program. So they told me I had to pay $6200 in cash to avoid being placed in jail. I was panicky, I was shaky. I just kept asking her, I was like, "I do not like this. I'm not going to put this money in a machine." And she said, "You have to, we have a, this is how bails are paid."

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[00:00:51] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:56] Bob: Look out for your neighbors. It sounds like such a simple thing, and yet it's not so simple, right? I can be tempting to stay out of things, to not get involved. But today's story, I hope, will show you just how much a little bit of caring can go a long, long way, and can make an immense difference in a neighbor's life. This story might sound all too familiar at the start, but it's got a very, very surprise ending. You'll meet a woman we're going to call just Ellen to protect her identity. She lives in small town, Tennessee.

[00:01:33] Ellen: It was about a year ago I got a phone call that I couldn't answer. So they left a voicemail and when I checked, it said it was the police department, actually it said it was the sheriff's office in Sumner County, which is the county Gallatin is in, and that I needed to call back right away. So when I did, they left a number on my voicemail, that person was, said her name was Karen Johnson, and that she worked for the sheriff's department and she had a warrant for my arrest. She had my attention right away.

[00:02:05] (CLIP) Good afternoon. This is Sergeant Karen Johnson, Sumner County's Sheriff's and Courts Services. I'm seeking to establish contact with a Miss [beep]. Miss [beep], please contact our office on an urgent legal matter. I need your immediate attention. Now you can respond back on my callback number which is 615 [beep]. Again, that is 615 [beep]. Again, this is Sergeant Karen Johnson, Sumner County's Sheriff's and Courts Services.

[00:02:31] Bob: That is chilling.

[00:02:32] Ellen: I called right back as soon as I listened to the voicemail. I was frightened. She was very firm with me like you would expect a police officer to be; no chitchat, no explanation. She didn't want anything from me; she was just very curt and firm and authoritative. So I was intimidated, but she told me that I...

[00:02:53] Bob: Okay, so let me just, 'cause I, 'cause back to the voicemail alone would have sent me to 11. So I'm already nervous for you.

[00:02:59] Ellen: Right. She started explaining to me that I had a court date the day before this phone call and that I had missed it and therefore there was a warrant out for my arrest.

[00:03:09] Bob: There is a warrant out for her arrest. The warrant involves the Paycheck Protection Program, maybe you remember that. It was one of the government's efforts to help workers during the pandemic. Ellen had taken out a PPP loan a few years ago, so she was very familiar with the program.

[00:03:29] Ellen: So she told me that 22 accounts had been opened in my name under the PPP program and using my email and my Social Security number.

[00:03:41] Bob: At first, Ellen is incredulous. So incredulous that...

[00:03:46] Ellen: I hung up on her, and I just said this sounds untrue. I don't believe you.

[00:03:51] Bob: But Karen offers proof. Lots of proof.

[00:03:56] Ellen: She sent all these documents came to me by text. And they looked very official and she called me back and said, "I told you not to hang up on me or we'll have to arrest you." She threatened me and I said, "I didn't believe you, but now I'm seeing these documents." And she read all of that information to me and then she texted me copies of court documents of my, what I was charged with and, and then she told me that they were investigating. That it was a huge investigation of the whole fraudulent activities under the PPP program.

[00:04:33] Bob: Karen seems to know a lot about Ellen too, and makes a point of that when she tells Ellen she has to pay a big fine, right away.

[00:04:42] Ellen: And then she then told me that I to get in my car and go to the bank to get the $6200. It was exactly half. I had taken $12,400 for my PPP loan, and so she had exactly half that as my bail. I called it a bond, but it was a bail, she told me it was bail.

[00:05:03] Bob: She has to pay an amount that is precisely half of her PPP loan, right away or she'll be arrested. Right away.

[00:05:14] Ellen: I was panicky, I was shaky. I was really scared that I was going to be put in jail, so I offered to drive immediately to the sheriff's office to discuss this with him and she said, "Oh no, you have, if you walk into the building, we're going to put you in jail 'cause you haven't paid your bail." And then she said, "You have to give us the $6200 before you walk in here or I will be forced to arrest you and put you in jail for at least 72 hours."

[00:05:43] Bob: But what about due process? That bond needs to be paid immediately because Ellen, well Ellen has already missed her chance at due process.

[00:05:53] Ellen: She then told me that because I had missed the court date, that they had a warrant out for my arrest and to avoid being put in jail I had to pay the bond to avoid being jailed, and that bond amounted to 50% of my loan under the PPP program. So they told me I had to pay $6200 in cash to avoid being placed in jail.

[00:06:21] Bob: That's absolutely terrifying, wow.

[00:06:23] Ellen: It was. (chuckles)

[00:06:26] Bob: Yeah, oh my God.

[00:06:29] Bob: So again, warned that she has to pay the bond immediately, she can't even go to the sheriff's office, Ellen follows Karen's instructions carefully.

[00:06:38] Ellen: Since then it went on from there where she told me to get in my car. My son lived with me at the time, my adult son, and so he was looking at me asking me what was going on. And I told the lady, please hold on while I tell my son what's going on. And she said, "If you tell anyone else, we'll just come and arrest you now." So she threatened me not to tell anyone. She stayed with me on the phone all the way in my car to the bank. I followed the directions. I got in my car and kept them on the phone the whole time that it took me to get to the bank which was at least 20 minutes, 'cause it's about 12 or 13 miles... no, it's about 15 miles from here.

[00:07:24] Bob: At the bank, Ellen is told to ask for cash. Now she doesn't have that kind of cash in her checking account, so she has to make a draw from her home equity line of credit, and again, she can't tell a soul what's going on.

[00:07:38] Ellen: And when I got to the bank, she warned me that I couldn't tell the bank teller why I was taking out the money because the bank was part of the investigation. And that if I let her know that I was doing this because of this investigation, that again, they would just have to put me in jail.

[00:07:56] Bob: Now with $6200 cash in hand, Ellen gets the next set of instructions. She's told to drive to a local gas station with a crypto ATM.

[00:08:09] Ellen: And that's where I just kept asking her, I was like, "I do not like this. I'm not going to put this money in a machine." And she said, "You have to, we have a, this is how bails are paid." And I just, I kept questioning her; I wasn't comfortable with it. I kept offering to bring it directly to the sheriff's office and she wouldn't let me saying that they would have to arrest me, that we had to do it in this fashion for it to be documented correctly.

[00:08:35] Bob: Full of panic, clutching all the cash, Ellen parks her car outside the gas station and strides inside looking for the crypto ATM.

[00:08:44] Ellen: When I walked in, I was still on the phone with her and I was quest--, I remember I was questioning her saying, "I am not comfortable with this." And then I got to the machine and looked at it and I told her; this is a Bitcoin machine. This is not a regular, this has no indication of the sheriff's department on here or anything, like there's like no signage to tell me that this is the right machine to put it in. And so she said, It is. I'm going to send you a QR code..."

[00:09:12] Bob: Now dear listener, if you caught many of our episodes recently, you probably think you know what, exactly what happens next. Ellen spends a frustrating 20- or 30-minutes shoving cash into this strange machine. Onlookers walk by and avert their eyes. Maybe she does it several more times before realizing that Karen is really a criminal. But this story takes a hard left turn when... well, meet Eric.

[00:09:39] Eric Stewart: Uh my name is Eric Stewart, and I'm in Hendersonville, Tennessee.

[00:09:44] Bob: And tell me roughly where is Hendersonville. Is there a big city that it's close to?

[00:09:47] Eric Stewart: Yeah, it's north of Nashville.

[00:09:49] Bob: Oh, okay.

[00:09:51] Eric Stewart: I work for a Kwik Sak.

[00:09:52] Bob: It's a gas station and a, probably a convenience store too, right?

[00:09:55] Eric Stewart: Yes, sir, absolutely.

[00:09:57] Bob: So you have, a lot of these places now, you have one of these Bitcoin ATMs in your place. How often do folks come in and use it?

[00:10:05] Eric Stewart: It gets used roughly about three times a month, maybe more.

[00:10:09] Bob: Three times a month? That honestly sounds like very little to me.

[00:10:12] Eric Stewart: Yes sir, it is.

[00:10:13] Bob: But it sounds to me like you have observed, at least on several occasions, that sometimes people come to that machine and, and they're anxious or on the phone or tell me how you got the idea that you should maybe keep an eye for people using the machine.

[00:10:27] Eric Stewart: I'm a people watcher; I'm a people observer, and I'm also paying attention, obviously working in a store, making sure no one's stealing anything, make sure, you've got to be prepared, always watch your surroundings, you know. Unfortunately, the country has gotten, well, every country's got to where you possibly should be at least aware of your surroundings, minimal of what's going on. When I see people go to this machine, which obviously when I said three times a month, it's a rarity, I noticed that they might be there for a long period of time, and that they're on their phone. And that to me says, hey, obviously they don't know what they're doing at this machine. And it's probably obviously the first time they're ever using it. Sirens go off in my head. I usually keep an eye on this on what's going on and I notice that they've been there for quite a bit, you know, 5 minutes or more. And they haven't actually been able to complete their transaction, or it takes a couple of minutes roughly when I've seen people use it. So that's a red flag right there.

[00:11:28] Bob: And on this day, Eric uses those observational skills and sees Ellen standing by his station's Bitcoin machine.

[00:11:37] Eric Stewart: I noticed she was on the phone at the machine for too long. Should have been there for a couple of minutes. And when I say a couple of minutes, I guess more like 5, 8 minutes. And I was like, so I walked around the store, I straightening stock, cleaned, whatever, and I listen in, and I don't remember what I heard 'cause it was a while back, and I was like, alright, I knew. My common sense kicked in, like yeah.

[00:12:05] Bob: Well a lot more than Eric's common sense kicks in. His common decency kicks in. So he walks up to Ellen and...

[00:12:13] Eric Stewart: And that's when I said, my very first question is, "Do you know who you're talking to?" She said something that said there's a warrant out for her. A warrant? Yeah, and I said, "No ma'am," I said, "No." I said, "You can go to the police station. There's no way that the money going to a Bitcoin machine is going, that's not how you pay this. That's not, that's not how that gets paid. There's, that's not the form of payment that you would pay for something like this."

[00:12:44] Bob: And then Eric tries to be even more direct.

[00:12:47] Eric Stewart: I was like, "Please, just hang up the phone. Just hang up the phone." I said, "If it is a warrant, you can go to the police and ask them if there's a warrant and everything."

[00:12:56] Bob: Ellen remembers looking up from her phone to listen to Eric.

[00:13:00] Ellen: And then the manager came over and said, "Stop, that's a scam. Don't put any cash in that machine."

[00:13:08] Bob: Wow! That's very dramatic.

[00:13:11] Ellen: Yeah. The way I remember it, he, he just came over and said, "If they're asking you to put cash in that machine, it's a scam. Don't do it."

[00:13:19] Bob: Wow.

[00:13:21] Bob: So Ellen looks down at her money, back down at her phone, and tries to tell Karen what's going on.

[00:13:28] Ellen: On the phone I said, "The manager here is telling me this is a scam." And she wasn't even there anymore 'cause she could hear him talking to me.

[00:13:35] Bob: Oh.

[00:13:36] Ellen: She had just hung up.

[00:13:38] Bob: The line goes dead. Karen had just hung up. And Ellen is standing there with more than $6000 in her hand.

[00:13:49] Ellen: The manager came over and stopped me. Thank God.

[00:13:53] Bob: You now feel, now I'm thinking about the roller coaster; you go from being like scared to anxious, also, I don't know about you, but I don't want to drive around with $6000 cash in my pocket.

[00:14:02] Ellen: Right.

[00:14:03] Bob: That's scary. This sounds this is a horrible day.

[00:14:05] Ellen: Yeah, (chuckles) it ruined my day.

[00:14:08] Bob: My God, like I might be going to jail. I've got to get $6000. I've, obviously I'm sure you need $6000, right?

[00:14:14] Ellen: Yeah.

[00:14:15] Bob: And now you're at this machine, and then this random person, I guess you know he's an employee, but you aren't probably not even sure of that, says, "Stop, it's a scam." What goes through your mind?

[00:14:24] Ellen: Just how...

[00:14:24] Bob: Did you believe him right away?

[00:14:26] Ellen: Oh, I believed him right away. But at that point I was questioning everything she was telling me. I did not want to put that money in the machine, so when he said, "Hang up, it's a scam," it was a relief. I was just like, okay. And I just, especially when she didn't say anything after he, she had hung up after he told me it was a scam.

[00:14:46] Bob: It was a small moment in time, but it was genuinely a life-changer for Ellen.

[00:14:52] Bob: I wonder if you remember, maybe like her facial expression when suddenly it dawned on her that, that yes, this was a scam? Have, do you remember anything like that?

[00:15:00] Eric Stewart: Yeah. Her face did change. And as I'm sitting there, exactly I could see, you're exactly right, her face did change when it was coming to her an understanding of things that me and her were speaking to, making her understand that this is a scam and bringing obvious steps into this. So yeah, her face went from like confused and oh my goodness, and like, you could see a little bit of shock and the realization in her face. But yeah, I could see the relief on her face too right there at the end when she was leaving. Oh, more or less like I probably don't have a warrant on me. I can't believe I almost got scammed, but also that I don't have a warrant out for me, I'm not going to lose... I had to lose all this money, spend all this money on what she thought she needed to do. The relief on her face when she left was, was a huge difference from when I first had approached her.

[00:16:02] Bob: Not only does Eric save Ellen from having a lot of money stolen; he cares for Ellen's fragile emotional state too.

[00:16:09] Ellen: I just felt so foolish.

[00:16:11] Bob: Oh.

[00:16:11] Ellen: Really, and Eric was like, "It just happened to two other people here this morning." He told me that.

[00:16:17] Bob: Wow!

[00:16:17] Ellen: He just said, "It happens to everybody." He said or, "It could happen to anyone. You don't feel bad." 'Cause I was saying, I feel so foolish. (chuckles) I can't believe I almost put $6000 in this machine, and so he was just really nice, a nice guy.

[00:16:34] Bob: Five minutes out of his day or whatnot, but it really was a life-changing thing for you, right?

[00:16:38] Ellen: Absolutely, absolutely. I love Eric. I don't hesitate at all to go into Kwik Mart anymore; you know what I mean.

[00:16:45] Bob: Eric, rightly so, enjoys feeling like he's done something for the community.

[00:16:52] Bob: That must feel great for you.

[00:16:52] Eric Stewart: Yeah, it does, it does. It really does, and I remember, I don't think I said anything to my wife about it, but the other day I was, oh yeah, by the way... But to me it's like, it's just, 'cause the way I think about it, what if that was your family member? What if that was your grandma, your aunt, you know your mother, you know, your neighbor, you know your best friend? Why would you not, why would you not help another person in need, 'cause that is someone's grandma, that is someone's mom, aunt, sister, relative, neighbor; they are those things. And I wouldn't, why would you not want to help that person when it takes a couple minutes, that's it.

[00:17:33] Bob: But he didn't even realize the depth of the trouble he saved Ellen from until I told him. Ellen would have had to make monthly payments with interest to pay back that $6200 she borrowed from her HELOC.

[00:17:47] Bob: So she didn't have that money. She had to take out a loan to have that money.

[00:17:50] Eric Stewart: Oh wow.

[00:17:51] Bob: She would have had years of $200 a month payments or whatever in addition to everything else. You really, it's a big deal what you did for her.

[00:17:59] Eric Stewart: Wow, that's amazing. That makes me feel even better now. Hah. That's awesome.

[00:18:05] Bob: Yeah.

[00:18:05] Eric Stewart: Wow, that I was able to help that, prevent that. Wow.

[00:18:09] Bob: Yeah, she had a HELOC, and so she borrowed money out of the HELOC in order to get the $6000. That would have been a years' long problem for her that you stopped.

[00:18:16] Eric Stewart: Yeah, and stress especially if she's on a fixed income. I know she was a little bit older, I don't know how old she is and or anything like that. I know a lot of people are just living off of one check a month trying to survive, and then that stress added more. Wow, that would have been a lot more stress, yeah, wow. I'm going, God had put me there on purpose, for that, at that moment. Absolutely.

[00:18:41] Bob: Maybe you can tell from Eric's matter of fact tone of voice, this wasn't his first crypto ATM rodeo.

[00:18:51] Bob: This isn't the only time you've stopped other people from doing this too, right?

[00:18:53] Eric Stewart: That's correct, yeah.

[00:18:55] Bob: How many do you think?

[00:18:55] Eric Stewart: Easily two more, easily two more after that. And the last one, he was, I assume a spouse, and I'd had done the same thing. And I said, "Sir, just..." He was fighting me on it. He really was. And he moved the phone away from his cheek, and I was seeing on there, I said, "Sir, your phone for caller ID says, 'SPAM RISK.' It says on your phone it's a 'SPAM RISK.'" I said, "Please just hang up." And he fought me too. He had walked out that door. I told his wife, I said to whoever she was, I was like, "Hey..." She said, "I've been trying." I said, "Please, just hang up that phone. Just get that phone from him and hang it up 'cause I promise they're not going to call back." I think he; he didn't do it because there's not that many of those ATMs or machines around, those Bitcoin machines. There's not a lot of them.

[00:19:46] Bob: How did Eric learn to be so attuned to potential crypto ATM scams? Well, he listened.

[00:19:54] Eric Stewart: How I learned about this was, I had a elderly customer, unfortunately it's been a lot of elderly people seems to be what's happening, and a customer had said, told us, he goes, "Hey, whoever that is over there, she been over there talking to, that's a scam, 'cause I could hear the conversation on the phone going back and forth. That's a scam." And so that's how I got the information on figuring out how it's a scam just learning from that right there. And I just used my intelligence and common sense and put things together, hey, y’all, okay, this is a scam.

[00:20:27] Bob: But the first time you saw this, somebody actually tipped you off that they had heard the conversation and it was a scam.

[00:20:31] Eric Stewart: Yes, sir. She actually fought me.

[00:20:34] Bob: Fought you. Wow.

[00:20:36] Eric Stewart: Yeah, yeah. "Ma'am," to the customer and I was like, "alright, since I work here, I'll approach her." And she goes, "No." I said, "Do you know who you're talking to?" She goes, "No, but it's okay. I know what I'm doing." And I was like, "Well someone overhead and said that you're, you know, that you're being scammed." I was like, "Do you truly know who you're talking to on the phone?" And she really fought me. I sat there and asked her a couple of questions and tried to use red flags, I tried to use, I can't remember the question was, a red flag question is I think there is something there, "If you don't know who you're talking to, do, are you sure you should be doing this and putting that money in there?" And luckily, her husband had been sitting out in the car. I don't know; this was a great scammer, whatever he or she had told this lady to actually convince her husband as well. These people are super topnotch. It goes from you leaving your destination where you're at, physically going to the bank and withdrawing this cash, probably with a bank teller because it's a couple thousand. I don't know what the limit is on the ATM, I've never pulled, tried to attempt to pull that much money out, and they go from the bank to the Bitcoin machine and this whole time this is fighting traffic on the traffic, could easily, we could be at an hour now, they're on the phone.

[00:21:58] Bob: Yeah.

[00:21:59] Eric Stewart: By the time we get to the Bitcoin machine, that's an hour conversation easily, you know, so when I left it, I told her husband, I said, "Hey, y’all, that's a scam that's going on with your wife and everything," and he goes, "I figured," you know. "You might want to stop her." And he went in there. I don't know what happened, 'cause I was leaving for the rest of the day and hopefully they didn't go through, or the minimum.

 [00:22:21] Bob: But she ultimately didn't believe you. She believed the person on the phone.

[00:22:25] Eric Stewart: Yeah, yeah, that person was really good. Cause for her husband, for her to defy her husband who was with her as well, to go to the bank and had gotten that far. That person, unfortunately, they are really good at their job.

[00:22:41] Bob: Do you have, 'cause one of the, I think, really important things you've mentioned is that when somebody comes in and they're upset obviously, and they've got a lot of cash in their hands, they're nervous, and so you're very careful with how you approach them, right?

[00:22:56] Eric Stewart: Absolutely. Usually they have a phone in their hand, if it's females, it's going to be in the purse. The gentlemen, unfortunately, he had those little envelopes that you get from the bank, and you could see it in his pocket hanging out a little bit. I understand there was a lot of money, so I easily give him the space and let him know I'm not trying to rob you or anything, but I let him know I'm aware of the situation and of what's going on. But yeah, most of them are just, they're on the phone just like everyone else is, and but when they get to the machine they find it really easy, it's right next to the ATM machine, so this is just like an average person coming in on the phone, but I wouldn't say that they was hanging, having a moment of panic and all that, but yeah, I definitely give him the space. I give everyone the space 'cause you don't know, so some stranger's walking up to you. And you had a machine that either you put money in or you take money out of, so obviously, you want to make them feel, I want to make them feel safe around me.

[00:23:57] Bob: So Eric has learned to approach potential victims with great care.

[00:24:01] Eric Stewart: And I try to pull a flashlight over their head, let them think, I try to let their mind, not me tell them, because me telling them is not going to mean nothing because these scam people are smart. But let me alert them and let their senses say hey, wait a minute. I try to use easy language, understandable language because obviously there's a lot going through this person's mind; fear, anxiety, I'm pretty sure, a little bit of shock of hey, what is really going on, so I'm sure this person's feeling all these emotions so I try to make everything as simple or it, for them to understand that hey, yeah, let, let me stop this and not do this.

[00:24:47] Bob: You are natural at the psychology of the situation. We hear all the time when family members say, "That's a scam" that people don't listen. Because sometimes when you're that direct with someone in that state of mind, they reject it, but you have described it as shining a light over their heads so they can figure it out themselves. How did you get so smart about psychology?

[00:25:07] Eric Stewart: I don't know. Like I said, I'm a people observer, and uh, I was in management in the fast-food industry for many years.

[00:25:16] Bob: Aha.

[00:25:17] Eric Stewart: And I know that every employee's different. Some, you know, I don't say nothing to, they just do a great job. Some, you have to pat them on the back. Some you just have to slowly guide them. And then others, you have to tell them, aw, man, that's amazing. Great job, 'cause they need to hear that. Everyone's different in the workforce and just, so I observed that and just noticed that. And I guess I used that, me watching people, working people, understanding how they work and I just use my intelligence to guide me through those situations, scenarios with them.

[00:25:53] Bob: That makes a ton of sense to me.

[00:25:56] Bob: Sadly, Eric hasn't been able to stop every crypto crime.

[00:26:02] Bob: There's one situation that I heard about where you just didn't get to the person in time and they did feed the money into the machine, is that right?

[00:26:09] Eric Stewart: Yeah, unfortunately in my lunch rush, we have a food truck that's outside, and it will stay busy for easy an hour and a half just constant customers coming in and out. I was unaware of it, 'cause I couldn't, I can't see from where I stand in the register area, I couldn't see over there. And I wasn't aware that that lady was there for that long. I felt bad, I really did. I really did feel bad. But yeah, unfortunately, yeah, that did happen.

[00:26:39] Bob: But that's going to, you can't be there 24 hours a day, right? No, that's going to happen.

[00:26:43] Eric Stewart: Yeah.

[00:26:45] Bob: Ellen did learn that there were other victims in her town that day.

[00:26:50] Ellen: The whole thing was weird. I did go to Gallatin Police Department and they told me that I was just one of many every day. Like they, the guy just shook his head and said it happens all the time, don't worry about it. And I said, "Don't you want to follow up on it? I have the phone number she called from. She was saying she was this undersheriff," and he said, "No." And that was the Gallatin Police. But yeah, I guess it just happens all the time.

[00:27:15] Bob: So what did you do with the $6000? What was your next step there?

[00:27:18] Ellen: I put it, I put it back in the bank. (chuckles) I got to pay, pay back my loan. So...

[00:27:25] Bob: Did you have to pay any kind of a fee or anything?

[00:27:28] Ellen: No, since I put the money back it, I, I didn't have to pay a fee. I didn't have to pay a fee.

[00:27:33] Bob: Okay, good.

[00:27:33] Ellen: I don't know if you know about HELOC loans, but they're like credit cards, so you, I have a monthly payment that I pay back, but that didn't affect it.

[00:27:41] Bob: Were you tempted to go buy a boat or anything?

[00:27:43] Ellen: No! No!

[00:27:44] Bob: You've got $6000, I mean...

[00:27:46] Ellen: Yeah, burning a hole in my pocket. No.

[00:27:50] Bob: In the end this is a story about a person going the extra mile for a neighbor. No, it's not Eric's job to stop people from putting money into a crypto ATM, but he made it his job.

[00:28:03] Bob: So that experience led you to, it sounds like you think of this as part of your job to, to walk up and ask people why are you doing this?

[00:28:11] Eric Stewart: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I've had some people, like people that actually do use that machine, and I feel like it is my job. I feel like it's every person's job if they see something wrong to step in and say something or do something depending on the situation. I believe that every human being, that that should be an everyday thing.

[00:28:32] Bob: I'm here to tell you that we, we do these interviews once a week or so, and I've talked to many victims who, after the fact, tell me I was on my hands and knees shoving hundred-dollar bills into this machine for 20 minutes, nobody said anything. People, I even asked for help and the fella said, that's not my job. I guess if you just had a thought about if you could talk to somebody else who works at another gas station somewhere else in America, what would you tell them about stepping in?

[00:28:59] Eric Stewart: I'd definitely give them a hint to someone or I'll give them advice for the situation, but as you just pointed out is, you know, am I wasting my time? Are they just allowing me to speak to them and to just everything I said was just a waste of time and say okay, whatever. That's not my business. It's so unfortunate, like you just said that, like you said someone asked for help, and they said that's not my job and they got scammed, so wow. That's disturbing.

[00:29:26] Bob: It's definitely disturbing, but it's actually pretty common, I think. So that's sad.

[00:29:28] Eric Stewart: Wow.

[00:29:30] Bob: If somebody is listening to this who works at a convenience station near a Bitcoin machine, that's one piece of advice I assume you'd give them is if you're going to intercede be, be careful, give them their space. What other kind of advice would you offer?

[00:29:43] Eric Stewart: Just the main thing is pay attention, be alert, and approach the situation carefully because you don't know if they're carrying a weapon, don't know how much money they're carrying.

[00:29:57] Bob: I wonder if you might make a plea to other people that, that it is worth stepping in and saying something?

[00:30:02] Eric Stewart: You don't have to fully, fully focus on that, but just be aware. Okay, that person came in, I done taken care of X amount of customers, they've been over there a little bit, and it's not going to hurt to say, "Hey, is everything okay? Do you know what you're doing?" It's not going to hurt nothing to do that. They say, "Yeah, I know what I'm doing, uh just the machine's giving me a problems," or what... an experienced person's going to let you know, "Oh yes," they'll say, "I'm fine. Just giving me a problem for some reason." Unexperienced person says, "No, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm having problems. I'm trying to do what this person tells me over the phone, blah-blah-blah." Then you're like, okay, wait a minute. Now maybe I need to intervene and figure out what exactly is going on with this situation. It just takes one minute, it's that, that simple.

[00:30:51] Bob: It just takes a minute and well it really can change someone's life.

[00:30:56] Bob: Could we just have you imagine to yourself what the consequences would have been if you did put that money in the machine?

[00:31:02] Ellen: I, of course, can't afford it, and again, I just, there's just a feeling of being betrayed, like it's a deep cut.

[00:31:11] Bob: Yeah, sure.

[00:31:13] Ellen: And so it's more of a emotional harm than it would be the financial harm. Yeah, I would have lost that money.

[00:31:20] Bob: But you would have had like a $200 a month payment for the next 10 years or something, right?

[00:31:24] Ellen: Exactly, yeah, to pay that off. You're right.

[00:31:27] Bob: Yeah.

[00:31:28] Ellen: So um...

[00:31:29] Bob: That would have been serious, yeah.

[00:31:30] Ellen: Yeah. So anyway I'm, I'm...

[00:31:33] Bob: Alright, well...

[00:31:33] Ellen: ...thankful that I didn't get scammed.

[00:31:36] Bob: Okay, we think it's really important for folks who run gas stations and Kwik Marts and whatnot, to be on the lookout for this kind of thing.

[00:31:43] Ellen: I agree.

[00:31:44] Bob: It's not required by law, but to be a good person it helps. And so I would like for you to maybe have a message for someone who could be in that position, someone who could be an Eric. What would you say to that person?

[00:31:55] Ellen: Someone like Eric, yes. I think they need to pay attention and especially to people who are stuffing money into that machine instead of taking money out. They should go and say, people have been scammed, or just give them a warning, or maybe these places should have a sign that they put up on these machines that the scams are going on. I don't know.

[00:32:18] Bob: A lot of people just don't care, you know, like that's not my problem this lady wants to put money in this machine, no skin off my back. What would you say to somebody who reacted that way?

[00:32:26] Ellen: I would hate that people don't want to take care of their neighbors. I think that's one of the reasons why I love Gallatin is this community does take care of each other. They seem to care about one another. And so I would hope that would be true other places, but we know it’s not. It's just people need to care about other people. Okay? (chuckles)

[00:32:48] Bob: We're going to play all sorts of beautiful music behind what you just said, 'cause it's very...

[00:32:53] Ellen: Yes.

[00:32:53] Bob: It's so simple, but it's true.

[00:32:55] Ellen: Exactly.

[00:32:55] Bob: I mean we've just; we got to start caring about each other again. It's terrible that people don't.

[00:32:58] Ellen: And, and not be afraid to help out. I'm not saying to interfere in something that looks dangerous, but just to say something to someone, to give them a warning is enough to say, I just want you to know, several people have been scammed using that machine. I warn you not to put cash in that machine.

[00:33:15] Bob: I think that's great, and do you have, and just in case, I mean you probably have done this already if you, if there's something you want to say to Eric you can say here, what would you like to say to him?

[00:33:23] Ellen: Just thank you. Thank you, Eric, so much for stopping me from putting cash in that machine. Thank you for caring about your neighbors. He seems to have a great relationship with the people who come into the store. He's very friendly and outgoing, and I just appreciate that about him. He's a good neighbor.

[00:33:42] Bob: Well I think that's great. He's a good neighbor.

[00:33:43] Ellen: He's a good neighbor.

[00:33:46] Bob: I wanted to make sure that Eric heard directly how much Ellen, well how much all of us appreciate his willingness to step in and help.

[00:33:56] Bob: Well, I have to say on behalf of everyone, thank you very much for having this community spirit. Not everyone does, and I think it's really great that you're willing to step in and do the right thing. So thank you.

[00:34:08] Eric Stewart: Absolutely. Like I said, just it's the right thing to do and that's who, that's the type of person I am. It's not going to hurt nothing. It's not going to hurt nothing.

[00:34:17] Bob: And it might make a world of difference to somebody else.

[00:34:19] Eric Stewart: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:34:21] Bob: So she told me that she still goes into the store every once in a while now and you guys have a nice hello. Is that true?

[00:34:26] Eric Stewart: Yeah, she still does come in there. I do remember, I seen her and everything, and I asked her, I don't expect her to come in continuously, that's not who I am. She gave me a thank you, and that was, that's all I need is a thank you and that I actually helped her out so much, I didn't realize that that deep, that's really deep.

[00:34:45] Bob: Yeah.

[00:34:46] Eric Stewart: But that's who I am, that's how I am about things, and I don't her to ever think like that she needs to continue to come by every now and then saying hi and thank you again. That's not needed.

[00:34:57] Bob: It's a, it's a good way to make a friend though, I will say.

[00:34:59] Eric Stewart: It is. It is. I just don't her, I'm glad she doesn't feel like, oh my goodness, because he did that, I got to... no. That's not needed.

[00:35:08] Bob: She doesn't owe you anything.

[00:35:09] Eric Stewart: No, absolutely, no. She doesn't. She gave me a thank you and that was it. That's all that was needed. But I will tell you a little something about me is every day I strive to make one person a different person smile or laugh. Like you said earlier, it could change everything. If you make that little joke, try to make someone smile, try to make someone laugh, heck, it can even change your day.

[00:35:34] Bob: Yeah, it sure can.

[00:35:36] Bob: Stepping in, caring, saying something when you see something. That can really change your day, it can change everything really. We wanted to talk a little bit more about the problem of crypto ATMs and about more systemic change, so today we have on the show, Alex Gammelgard; he's the police chief for the city of Grass Valley, located halfway between Sacramento and Lake Tahoe in the foothills of California. He is also a former president of the California Police Chiefs Association, which supports regulation of crypto ATMs. But we talked about the human element first.

[00:36:13] Bob: It strikes me that people like Eric are a really important cog in this machine for stopping crime, right?

[00:36:18] Alex Gammelgard: Eric is like many other people who help keep crime from happening or can alert the authorities and in other space too in, in traditional crime, if you will. And I think that it's so important that we have community members who are looking out, that it's similar to the bank teller who has somebody who is trying to transfer money on a illegitimate transaction who asks the questions and thinks about the impacts of the person standing in front of them and that cares about others. And I think that's what's important here is that the old saying of, "See something, say something," that's the case with Eric. He saw something that didn't seem right, made a comment, and he really saved that victim from losing a significant amount of money.

[00:37:01] Bob: How do we make it, make it so there's more Erics in the world?

[00:37:04] Alex Gammelgard: Yeah, I think the world would be better with more Erics. I think that it's really done at the community level in each community where people live and work, and one story about Eric that can get to somebody else that hears it would then maybe have the courage to say something. And then, of course, um, stories like are being told on The Perfect Scam podcast just so that more people become aware of it, and maybe next time instead of a person working at the store, it's someone who's just a customer who sees something and might stand up and say something.

[00:37:37] Bob: And saying something is really important, even if you're a victim. Because right now, many victims don't talk about crimes, Alex told me.

[00:37:47] Alex Gammelgard: For every case that's reported to us or to the state regulators, there is a huge number that go unreported, and some data that suggests that only 1 in 16 are reported to us. I wouldn't doubt if it's not even higher than that.

[00:38:02] Bob: Wow. Is that for scams in general or specifically crypto ATM-related scams?

[00:38:06] Alex Gammelgard: Specifically to crypto ATM scams.

[00:38:09] Bob: Wow! So for every 15 to 20 people who use it and are, are victims, only one comes to you.

[00:38:16] Alex Gammelgard: Yeah, I think there's a large amount of shame, regret, or just concern that nothing will happen, and that's a sad reality too is that most of these funds are being sent overseas to places where we're not going to be able to track as domestic authorities here. The FBI has had some success taking down large call centers where this is happening, and the sad reality with that too is that the person on the other end of these scams is likely being trafficked or working under some sort of labor trafficking anyway, so it's not like the individual doing this is really the person who's gaining the rewards of it. It's larger enterprise that is having them do that work.

[00:38:59] Bob: Man, some of these stories are just really sad, right?

[00:39:01] Alex Gammelgard: Yeah, they're incredibly sad and in some cases, this is people's savings or a significant amount of that, or something that definitely they could have done something much more meaningful and impactful with those dollars instead of sending them somewhere that they'll never see again.

[00:39:16] Bob: The increasing rate of these painfully sad crimes involving crypto ATMs is why a few years ago, Alex began efforts to do something more systemic about that.

[00:39:28] Alex Gammelgard: Yeah, so a couple of years ago I was the California Police Chiefs Association President, which is a statewide association of our chiefs of police in this state, and during that time we were concerned with a high number of fraud cases that were arising out of the use of crypto kiosks and crypto ATM machines statewide. And we wrote a letter of support for Assembly Bill 39 and Senate Bill 401, which endeavored to regulate some of the aspects of those machines.

[00:39:59] Bob: And why did, why, what was the need for that?

[00:40:02] Alex Gammelgard: We had heard from chiefs throughout the state and from our residents who had been victims of scams where scammers were asking folks to go to their corner convenience store, for example, where these crypto ATMs were located, and through a number of different types of scams, have them send money via these kiosk machines to basically to unknown locations, but really they were being utilized for scamming people.

[00:40:29] Bob: Do you have a sense that in some cases almost the only purpose for the machine was as a part of a scam?

[00:40:35] Alex Gammelgard: It really felt like that, maybe not the only purpose. Of course, there's legitimate uses for them, but in most cases where we were hearing about them, at least in the police world, was when people were finding out later that they had been scammed and coming to us and telling us that they had used this method as a way to deliver money to what ultimately was learned to be a scammer.

[00:40:57] Bob: And so when you first decided, thought about what kind of rules you could put around these machines to make them safer, what kind of ideas came up?

[00:41:04] Alex Gammelgard: Two pieces of that; one was registration of them, so that we would know who was operating them and we could get in touch with a responsible person to try to make it easier to then figure out information about the transaction itself, so it, if patterns could be determined, or in some cases, we might be able to solve the case, we would have that information, but then the other piece was around just consumer safety and trying to reduce the loss impact to people. So one of the things that was regulated in California for these was a maximum daily transaction limit, very similar to traditional ATMs where if somebody were to go and try to remove money, oftentimes there's limits based upon, on the bank rules on how much can be withdrawn.

[00:41:48] Bob: Sure, I've run into limits that were as low as a few hundred dollars.

[00:41:51] Alex Gammelgard: Right, sometimes five, and I think now a thousand, but in the case of the Senate Bill that sent through, it limits the amount in California in a daily limitation of $1000 for crypto kiosks.

[00:42:02] Bob: Yeah. So when you first proposed these kind of limits, how was that idea received?

[00:42:08] Alex Gammelgard: Ultimately, the bill was passed and signed into law, and I think people realized through the testimony and just the information in the bill itself that it was a straightforward and a lot of it made sense to people, especially with the amount of fraud that we were seeing running through these systems.

[00:42:25] Bob: Several other states have also passed laws around crypto ATMs.

[00:42:30] Alex Gammelgard: One of the concerns is that they are inconsistent throughout the country, but the good news is that it's definitely becoming a topic of conversation in state houses throughout the United States, and states are going about it in different ways, but we're definitely looking at ways to control the space and make sure that we're trying to balance the free commerce and the future of crypto currency, and the likelihood of it being even more common than it is today while also ensuring safeguards around individuals ability to be a victim.

[00:43:06] Bob: As we've seen at The Perfect Scam, many of these machines are popular with criminals, but not much with anyone else. The fees tend to be high, higher than buying crypto online, so it's hard to see why an investor would want to use them to turn dollars into say Bitcoin or vice versa. And while about 20 states have passed laws regulating the machines, individual municipalities are considering outright bans. Spokane, Washington passed such a ban in June of last year.

[00:43:36] Alex Gammelgard: I don't necessarily see a need for a kiosk machine like this to be able to pump out large amounts of cash or accept large amounts of cash. In addition to that, they generally have very high transaction fees where a vendor or a third party is gaining the benefit of that and the individual passing the money is losing that percentage. I think that, of course, there's always a legitimate purpose, but we still have a traditional banking system, maybe 10 years from now I'll have a different opinion, but right now I think that these are straightforward and commonsense regulations that make sense, and balance both of those.

[00:44:14] Bob: Is there anything else that you want to make sure people know about the crypto ATMs or just scams in general since I have you here?

[00:44:20] Alex Gammelgard: A lot of these scams are impersonation scams or based on what sound like promises, and that being false promises. Sometimes theses scams can start one day and continue for a period of time, a period that we would call in the industry a grooming period. Before then, the investment pitch and the extraction happens. So these are not necessarily one phone call, one, one scam incidents. These can be something that seems like a relationship that's occurring and then eventually there's a request for money. My hope for your listeners is that if somebody's asking you for money, that you would talk to just trusted people in your family. They can always go to their local police department and ask to speak to somebody about what's going on. They can ask the bank teller, like hey, here's what's going on. And the attempt is going to be, to be told don't talk to anyone about this, and there's going to be some sense of urgency to it. A local government entity is never going to call and ask you to transmit money via these means. Your local police department won't try to settle a warrant or a civil debt based on these means. There's just, there's a lot of red flags that if you hear about them first, will make sense. But if you haven't heard about them, may not, and so my biggest thing is to ask people to feel comfortable talking to somebody they trust before they look to send any money.

[00:45:47] Bob: We find that over and over again, and hopefully, with a law enforcement official or a, someone in their church community, or a family member, or just, but anyone, but if you can talk to just someone before you make a step like this, oftentimes even just the telling of the story helps break the spell that you're under.

[00:46:01] Alex Gammelgard: Absolutely.

[00:46:04] Bob: We want you to know that AARP has pushed hard for protections from crimes facilitated by crypto ATMs. AARP got involved in early 2024, talking with law enforcement, fraud victims and other stakeholders to understand the problem and the types of legislation that could help. As we mentioned, nearly twenty states have already passed laws regulating the machines now. Fourteen of them just in 2025 and AARP expects nearly every other state house in the country will consider legislation in the next year or so. In states that were early adopters like California and Connecticut, there is evidence that withdrawal limits and other rules are helping curb fraud. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:46:55] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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