Bonus: Avoiding Tax Scams With Michelle Singletary

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[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:03] Michelle Singletary: They're going to have an envelope that says IRS, Internal Revenue Service on the outside and that's how they communicate with you. Think about it this way. When you call, you could barely get through. Do you really think that they've got people sitting around trying to call you? Absolutely not.

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[00:00:21] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:26] Bob: April 15th, Tax Day, maybe the day signals relief for you as in you finished your taxes. But I bet mention of it stirs anxiety even if you finished filing a long time ago, and that anxiety, it's often a huge opportunity for criminals. This year the Federal Trade Commission has already issued a warning that there's been a huge surge in fake IRS calls to US taxpayers. Many believe artificial intelligence has supercharged this age-old scam, and there are other changes in tax paying that could open up new lines of attack for criminals. The federal government is moving away from mailing out paper checks for tax refunds, for example. And AARP has issued a watchdog alert that criminals might jump into the confusion this could create, so the arrival of April 15th brings with it a lot to talk about and there's no one better to talk with than columnist Michelle Singletary. She's been delivering consumer advice for more than three decades at The Washington Post and by the end of this episode, I think she will convince you that an index card with one word on it taped to your phone or your computer might just be the best defense against scams. What is it? Keep listening.

[00:01:41] Bob: So tell me what is the IRS worried about particularly this year?

[00:01:46] Michelle Singletary: I think a lot of AI is at the forefront of people's concerns. The ability for these scammers to robocall people on their phones, and they sound so official, and they can simulate people's voices; they sound very, if I can say it this way, Midwestern American, so it sounds like it's coming from an office in Wisconsin or Idaho or something. And you know there's the voice sounds very professional and very scary: Tax Resolution Office and Tax Mitigation. In fact, my sister got a, a call and she texts me in a bit of a panic, "Is this real? Is this real? I don't know, I don't know what's going on with my IRS." And I said, "It's absolutely a scam, honey, don't, you could probably ignore it." So the technology has gotten better. It used to be you could, there were some red flags, misspellings and it just didn't sound professional or, or read professional. And now you could put things in a, one of those AI generators and come up with a perfectly reasonable sounding script.

[00:02:53] Bob: Yeah, so much of the advice we used to give just doesn't apply anymore.

[00:02:57] Michelle Singletary: That's right. They could take my voice off of this very recording and send it to people and say, "This is Michelle Singletary calling you. You should be aware, just call this number." That's very scary.

[00:03:10] Bob: And let's just back up for a second. Any call or any contact from someone who claims they're from the IRS, that's going to upset you right away, right?

[00:03:18] Michelle Singletary: It does, because there's a lot of fear. Obviously, people don't want to get in trouble with the IRS. Their collection tools are pretty strong, as strong as there is out there, and people don't want to risk their jobs and have fines and penalties. Listen, I, I got to, and my son... and I live at home with my husband and my son, my 27-year-old son, um, and a letter came in from the IRS. I didn't know what was in the letter. All I saw was Internal Revenue Service, and right away my heart started pumping harder, and I was like, oh my gosh, what is this? Do we owe money? Oh my gosh. And it turned out he was applying for a PIN number or something like that. But you can see, right, I didn't even open the letter. All I saw was Internal Revenue Service on the envelope and right away I'm thinking, oh my goodness, what's wrong. And so imagine if people are calling you and sending you, and they may have some of your information. There's been so many data breaches. So they may have the last four digits of your Social Security number. They may have where you live or where you work, all this information that make you feel and, and manipulate you into believing that it's actually the IRS. And so what I love about what you all do, and what AARP has been doing is not to blame the victims because a lot of times you hear these conversations and people feel guilty or somehow they should be almost like a detective and absolutely know that it's a scam, but they're so sophisticated, again, with all the technology, that it's not your fault if you don't pick it up, if you don't pick up what the red flags are because you are at a disadvantage. They spend all day, every day doing this. This is their full-time job. And unfortunately, many of the scammers themselves are victims. They've been kidnapped and forced to do this stuff, and so they have to sound convincing because their very life is on the line in some cases.

[00:05:13] Bob: You're so right. I live in DC and I get notices every six months that my property taxes have to be paid or every year that my new property taxes are X. For some reason, I always get twice, two of them, and every single time I get the envelope, I dread opening it because who knows what it might be, and it's just a notice saying here's your taxes. But each time, I'm, and if that said there was a telephone equivalent of that saying, "Bob, we're from the tax office and you have to call this number and do some things," I very likely would do it.

[00:05:43] Michelle Singletary: Yeah, it's very easy to say, because when they do studies about it, especially about taxes and people's feelings about it, we think that people want to get out of paying their taxes. But when they do studies and look at what people feel about it, people actually do want to pay what they owe. And so when they get this call and they say, oh, you owe or something's wrong, they want to respond, they want to do the right thing. I pulled up my phone while we were talking because I've gotten several of these on my voicemail, 'cause if I don't recognize a number I don't pick it up. And one of them, I wrote about this recently in my column, and the person sounds just like she's in the office next door. "Hello, this is Martha Jennings," ... this is the actual transcript of the call: "Hello, this is Martha Jennings calling on Friday the 20th from the verification services department with the Tax Help and Mediation Office. I'm reaching out because your account appeared on our verification list, and we're offering access to our direct proprietary verification line which allows you to confirm your status quickly and without delays. This review checks for unresolved items and helps identify whether adjustments, assistance, or resolution options may still be available based on your information. Many people find this step helpful just to better understand their current standing. This process is short and focused strictly on verification. It's simply the fastest way to receive accurate answers." Now you're reading that and you're thinking, that's got to be from a bureaucrat you know. (laughs) Who would think that's a scammer? And you have all the verification and it just...

[00:07:13] Bob: A lot of words, yeah.

[00:07:14] Michelle Singletary: Lots of fancy, bureaucratic words that would make you think this has got to be legit.

[00:07:19] Bob: Wow. And that's a call you got like a couple of days go.

[00:07:22] Michelle Singletary: Yes, this is a call I've gotten in the last month. I got several in February, and I've been getting some as we get closer to the tax deadline. And then somebody else called, I think the person said their name was Jennifer or something like that. And the same sign--, same sort of kind of script. And it sounds so official, and it's like "Resolution," so you're thinking, oh my gosh, I owe money. I've got to resolve this, and that's, I believe without a doubt that was written by some AI bot.

[00:07:49] Bob: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense and we're all talking about AI and in some cases, we know for sure it is, in some cases we just kind of guess, but the volume and sophistication of these things make it, to me, undeniable that there's at least some kind of AI assistance involved in all these scams.

[00:08:04] Michelle Singletary: That's exactly right, yeah, and they can make more calls more frequently, so if they make a thousand calls and only two pick up, but those people are scammed out of thousands of dollars, it's worth their effort.

[00:08:14] Bob: Yeah, the barrier to entry to this is so small now. I know the FTC actually issued a warning about this back in January. They, they were already expecting this kind of a problem, but I think one thing that we have to talk about is maybe if you got this phone call in July, you might react one way. But April 13th, April 14th, right, when you just filed your taxes or this is all top of mind, that makes it even more effective, doesn't it?

[00:08:38] Michelle Singletary: It does. The closer it is to the tax season, the more realistic it sounds, the more like you, even if you filed and say you got a refund, you've already had your refund and you get this call, you're thinking, did I get the right amount? Am I owed more? Do I owe them more? And it makes it sound more realistic the closer we get. And even after the filing date, now that say you filed your taxes and you owed, but you didn't pay it all, you paid some of it, or maybe you owed and you get this call thinking, well I didn't do my taxes right, so they're calling to say I owe them more money. So and, and you've got to be on the lookout before the deadline and even after.

[00:09:19] Bob: Yeah, so this isn't over once April 15th passes, not at all.

[00:09:22] Michelle Singletary: Not at all.

[00:09:24] Bob: I want to get this out early in the episode; if you want to verify any message you think you received from the IRS in any way, you should go right to the IRS website, start with a fresh browser and type in the address yourself, don't click on a link, and visit IRS.gov/help. You'll see a whole list of ways to verify the authenticity of letters and phone numbers you can call. Another thing we need to talk about is a big change in the way the IRS might be sending your refund. An executive order signed last year directs the federal government to pivot away from sending paper checks out for any reason, including tax refunds and to pivot towards electronic direct deposit. There's good reasons for this. The government says paper checks are 16 times more likely to lead to fraud, but if you are a person who's used to getting paper checks, the IRS will want direct deposit information from you, and there might be confusion which always creates an opportunity for criminals.

[00:10:24] Michelle Singletary: So I am concerned about the government's push to get rid of checks. So what the order said was that they want to do everything electronic. If you don't put any banking information on your tax form, then they're going to reach out to you, send a letter and say, hey, you didn't put any banking information in. Is that what you intended? So that window of time where you maybe are owed a refund and you don't hear anything, or maybe you missed the letter, or you misread the letter, then that's a window for scammers to come in and say, hey, you're owed some money. You should call us so that you can get your money.

[00:10:58] Bob: So with all these various ways criminals can take advantage of April 15th and all it brings, how can you protect yourself?

[00:11:07] Michelle Singletary: You know what, first of all, don't believe anything. I know that sounds simple, right?

[00:11:12] Bob: No, I love that actually. (chuckles)

[00:11:14] Michelle Singletary: I'm not even going to tell you the red flags, if it's misspelled or they speak in an accent, or whatever. All of the things that we've been telling people, the one thing that I say is just don't believe anything: actually, there's two things. Don't believe anything. You just have to just say, I don't believe this is true until you can prove otherwise. And if you get an email or a text message or a phone call, your first instinct should be, it's a lie, just, just default to lie. I, I could joke that if my, when my husband calls and leaves a voicemail, I'm like, yeah, and I know my husband's voice, I've been married to him almost 35 years, so I'm like, I'll call him...
"Did you call me?" Because they can fake voices. And if he sends me something, and I was so proud, I was helping my son fill out an application and I needed his Social, I needed some information from him, and I sent him a text, which I should have known better. And I said, "Hey, Son, I need X." And he texts me back, I was so proud of him, he said, "Now, Mommy, didn't you tell me not to respond to any text messages and about any information." And so he called me, he's, "Did you send this?" I say, "Good for you." I wasn't testing him but good for him. And it's so interesting because that text message would have come underneath other texts that I had sent him, so he could see that it was my number but they can fake numbers. And so he did the right thing. He didn't even believe his mom, and you know my momma's not going to steer me wrong. But he did, and so that's what I'm saying. If it's your mom, your husband, your cousin, you get a DM on Facebook, immediately say it's a lie. That's the most important thing is just don't believe anything. Just, I don't believe anything - I check everything. I just default to, it's a lie, it's a like, it's a like until proven otherwise. Just, in fact, I would encourage people, get a little index card, and put it next to your phone, put it next to your computer, and just have the word, LIE, that's all, LIE. So when you open up an email, just look at the card and it says LIE. You open your text message, it's a LIE. You answer your phone ... LIE. Default to lie, that someone is lying to you, and then check it out. And I've done this many times. The bank has sent me something that somebody compromised my credit card and they're sending, "Hey, did you make this charge?" I will call them instead of responding to the text message. They say don't respond to it anyway, so I default to LIE. Everybody's lying, and then that will hopefully protect you.

[00:13:35] Bob: In case it wasn't clear, Michelle's first piece of advice is, distrust everything. But this second piece of advice is just as important. In addition to don't believe anything, she wants you to not do anything.

[00:13:49] Michelle Singletary: And this is where the scammers get you. They want you to be fearful. They want you to be scared. They want you to be in a panic, so you'll get a call, oh you owe the IRS, you'd better pay this bill right away or they're going to come arrest you. That's fear, that's you're going to be arrested. You could be arrested; you could lose your job. But the thing that saves you is to not act in the moment because say they compromise your bank account. If you act and give them information that they've requested like the code or information, then sometimes the bank says that you participated in the fraud. Now it's wrong for them to say that. I don't think that's good, but not acting, you actually have more protections, if that makes sense. So they say hey... hey, I'm going to send you, sign into your bank account and they're going to send you a code and give me that code. If you give them that code, you put yourself in jeopardy of the bank not giving you back your information. But if you don't do anything, they take your money out of your account and you haven't talked to anybody, you haven't clicked on a link, you haven't done anything, it's up to the bank to give you your money back because that's straight up fraud as opposed to a scam. And so what I tell people is that not acting in that moment of fear gives you more protections than when you act in that moment of fear if that makes sense.

[00:15:09] Bob: I really like what you're saying there. It boils it down so simply and you're absolutely right; if you're not participating in the scam, then the bank has to give you your money. But if you do something, you might unwittingly then be a part of it and the bank has more of an axe to grind with you. But it's a game of freeze tag.

[00:15:27] Michelle Singletary: Right.

[00:15:27] Bob: Just don't do anything.

[00:15:28] Michelle Singletary: That's right. That's exactly, that's a great example, that's right. You freeze. Do nothing. You have more protections. And again, you were manipulated to do something, but that, and that manipulation, that puts you in more jeopardy. So when your credit card is compromised, the law actually says that you're liable up to $50, but the banks only will charge you that. If you don't do anything, you haven't signed up to some shady website or whatever, then they're going to give you your money back because you had no relationship with this company, no, no conversation with the scammer or anything. They've got to clear those charges up. But if you went to a website, you put in information, and this happens a lot; you sign up for something that you think is free or a free trial, and somewhere down in the tiny print it says, "If you sign up for this, then we can charge you for the next six months, $79.99." And then when the credit card company calls that, they say, hey, they clicked this little box. You didn't click that box. You didn't see the box was clicked. You know how you, when you sign up for something they automatically have a checkmark. You might not have seen that tiny checkmark all the way down at the bottom. But if you don't go to that website and you haven't done any of that, then they've got to give you your money back. It's the same principle with tax fraud and all kinds of things. Your inaction actually saves you more than any action.

[00:16:45] Bob: The one time we tell people not to do something.

[00:16:49] Michelle Singletary: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

[00:16:50] Bob: Sit tight.

[00:16:52] Bob: As we've said, anyone can be targeted by a fake communication that looks like it's from the IRS. But people who owe money or are even worried they might owe money; they can be especially vulnerable.

[00:17:04] Michelle Singletary: You know you owe. You're trying to figure out how to either pay less or figure out some way to, to take care of this debt. That makes you more susceptible to scams because they know you're afraid. And I know what I'm about to say, people are like, I cannot call the IRS, they're going to just throw the book at me. But that is the first call you should make. You should absolutely call the IRS. They are not as big, bad wolf as they might have been in the past. They do want to work with taxpayers who want to be compliant, and I know this for a fact because I've worked with several people who owe the IRS, who was afraid to call. And I literally sat next to them and made the call, and we talked to the IRS together. And in each case, they set up a payment plan. And one gentleman, who was going to use one of these tax resolutions, tax debt relief companies, that was going to charge him almost $9000 and an interest rate, I think it was like at 14 or 15%. And I said, first of all, that's money that you could use to pay your tax bill. And I said, you could set up this payment plan yourself, and I had him call the resident officer that was assigned to him that was in his letter, he called this and the guy said, "Those people who call me, I am much more likely to deal with than the people who totally try to ignore me." And so he called, and he was able to set up a payment plan and save him almost $9000. So call them to set something up. There's so much on the IRS website, that will help you. You can get a payment plan, offer some compromise which is when you call those debt relief places, that's all they're really doing is offering compromise and putting in the paperwork for that. But you can do that yourself.

[00:18:40] Bob: There's this natural urge, I think so many people, especially when it comes to money that they're just, they just feel incompetent and they want to pay someone else to deal with it for them, because they feel incompetent, right?

[00:18:49] Michelle Singletary: Yeah, that is exactly right. They feel, and it is scary to talk to some people, and I think it probably sounds easy for me to say that; this is what I do for a living. I call people, I talk to them. But I want you to get rid of that middleman, that middle company, that is going to cost you even more money. If you are already, you already don't have the money to pay the IRS, you don't want to put out thousands of dollars to somebody else who's not going to be able to get you anywhere further than you could if you made that call yourself. And, and if you can't, find someone trusted in your circle of friends who could sit with you while you make that call. I've done that for people. I've done that for family members; I've done that for church members. I don't mind making those calls. And so if there's somebody in your life who is a little bit more aggressive than say you are and say, listen, I'm really scared. Can you stay here with me and help me make this call because I don't want you to feel as if there's no recourse for you. And I hate the idea of people spending all this money with these companies that really do two things that are either going to be a scam, or they're going to charge you way too much money. And I understand it's difficult, especially if you owe. Maybe you haven't...

[00:19:55] Bob: That's a great idea to have a friend with you, though. That's like bringing a friend to the car dealer or something just to help you a little bit. It's always hard to advocate for yourself, and when someone else can help you with that, it's a big boost, I think.

[00:20:05] Michelle Singletary: I think it is. It's very helpful. I play that part in my family. People call me and I negotiate with them or for them. And most of the time you've got that person in your family that's the tough cookie, and that's the person that should be your advocate.

[00:20:18] Bob: Boy, everybody should identify one of those in their life.

[00:20:21] Michelle Singletary: Yeah.

[00:20:21] Bob: Your hired tough cookie.

[00:20:24] Bob: So speaking of hiring help...

[00:20:27] Bob: You did a piece not too long ago about tax preparers and how there really is no licensing or regulation of who...

[00:20:34] Michelle Singletary: Oh my goodness.

[00:20:35] Bob: ... could be working at these places?

[00:20:36] Michelle Singletary: Yeah.

[00:20:36] Bob: Can you talk about that a little bit?

[00:20:37] Michelle Singletary: Yeah, just about anybody can file a tax return for you. They do have to, if they're taking money from you, then they have to apply for an identification number from the IRS, and then they can prepare your taxes. The problem is that many of these folks do not have the training. They don't, they don't know what they're doing. And so you want to be very careful that you're dealing with someone who is, has some, some training. In the column I talked about shady tax preparers' practices. Like one of the biggest, and I hate to use that phrase red flag, but this should make you pause. If they won't sign your return, that may be the hallmark of what they call a ghost preparer. So by law, any paid preparer must sign your return and include that personal number that I talked to, I mentioned, right? And so if they won't sign, that's, then you need to not use that person, right. It's absolutely not. So they should have a preparer tax identification number -- PTIN -- and then sign your return. If they don't, that means they're trying to avoid being accountable. The other thing is, people need to realize that if you use a shady preparer and say they put things on your return and you don't even know it's there, but they do that to boost your refund, you are held liable for that money because on the tax form it says, "This information, I verify that this is true," and even though you turned it over to someone else to do it, if they, the IRS comes back and says, this was fraudulent, you owe that money, not the tax preparer. Now they can charge that person and get, try to get restitution from them, but you're on the hook for that. If they, they, they show refund, if the fee is based on your refund amount, that's a shady person. Because that gives them incentive to try to boost your refund and many times, illegally they're taking credits or deductions that you're not entitled to, or they might say, oh, the IRS doesn't care if you claim your office and it really isn't your home office, that kind of thing. If they're encouraging you to put down dependents that you know you don't have, or expenses that you know you gave $50 to the church and you're trying to claim $5000, come on now. You know you, 'cause you're going to be the one to get in trouble, not them. And never, ever, ever-ever-ever-ever sign a blank tax return. So you might, they say, oh just sign it and I'll fill in all the information and mail it for you. Absolutely not. You should read everything, and then sign and get a copy. My husband does our taxes. I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I don't even trust my husband. So he does our taxes, and I say, okay, let me see everything. And I'm, and he's sitting there, seriously, honey? I'm like, I'm going to read every single line. Now I know he's not putting anything on me. He's human, he could make a mistake. And sometimes I'm looking it over, oh honey, this is in the wrong line, or no, it was this amount. You put 1000, it was 100 or something like that. So if someone's requesting for you to sign a blank return, you need to run. And you don't want to be in the crosshairs of the IRS. So if someone is doing any of these shady things, it's not worth it, particularly if the IRS comes back and they're going to come back after you.

[00:23:49] Bob: And even if the IRS is coming after you, they will never reach out via text and demand instant payment from you -- never.

[00:23:58] Bob: I think important for tax season with any of these issues, never is there an occasion where you have to act in the next three seconds or you're going to lose all your money. So whenever when someone's giving you that kind of time pressure, it's a lot. But the one thing we know about the IRS, it moves very slowly.

[00:24:14] Michelle Singletary: Hmm-hmm.

[00:24:15] Bob: Right?

[00:24:15] Michelle Singletary: That's right.

[00:24:16] Bob: So if there is an investigation of you or an audit or something, we're talking months and lots of letters, and there's nothing that's going to happen over a text message over, overnight, right?

[00:24:24] Michelle Singletary: Absolutely. That's exactly right. If they, if someone's trying to tell you to speed up doing something, that's a lie. If it's time sensitive, it's a lie. And that's actually true for anything when you're negotiating. If you don't buy this deal right now, you don't get this car today, you're not going to get this deal. If it was good today, it's going to be good tomorrow. I've had people tell me that all the time, and I said, okay, and I call them back, "Hey, I decided to take this." "Oh the deal's gone." "Well it, what happened between yesterday?" And, and if they won't give it, then okay, then they've lost my business. Yes, please don't feel like you have to act, because if the IRS is coming after you, they're going to send you a whole lot of letters with all those bureaucratic words, and they're going to have an envelope that says IRS, Internal Revenue Service on the outside. And that's how they communicate with you. Think about it this way. When you call, you could barely get through. Do you really think that they've got people sitting around trying to call you? Absolutely not. They don't have the staff to do that. And so if you get a call, that should be your clue right there that it's definitely a scam. They are slow, they are like a sloth. They're going to get their money, but it's not going to be like tomorrow, and they definitely aren't going to ask you to pay on a gift card or wire them money, or, or Bitcoin or any of that. They will not do that, and the same thing with anything that you, they say they're from the FBI or something like that. But again, I understand. You get that call, you're scared, you don't want to lose your job. They're threatening you, and it's really hard to think in the moment.

[00:25:52] Bob: Okay, so that's what to do to protect yourself. What if someone's listening to this and they realize, oh my God, I think I, this did happen to me. What kind of recourse do they have?

[00:26:01] Michelle Singletary: I, you know I know you don't want to do it, but just, you need to report it. More and more police stations are not even taking a police report. We tell you to file a police report, still try, especially if there's, there's some loss that you can say, just try to get them to take a report. But I've been hearing from people that sometimes they won't, but try anyway. And then definitely contact the FBI, contact the FTC, to file a report. Now they may not investigate your individual case, but if they get enough complaints that are similar or say like they're coming from the same scammer, that gives them an opportunity to investigate it. Unfortunately, rarely do they, are they able to get money back, but sometimes they can catch a scam soon enough that they can snatch back funds, particularly as it relates to actually cryptocurrency because there is this system where you've got to put in identifiers and things like that. And so sometimes they can get the money back, but rarely they do. But at least you're helping the authorities figure out where this is coming from. And I say that, because I have to be careful because if you did fall for a scam, that doesn't mean that you did something wrong. It just means that you were manipulated. And, and I really have to keep saying that, because the last thing we want to do is make victims feel as if they weren't sharp enough or smart enough to spot the scammer. It's not you. They are just extremely sophisticated.

[00:27:32] Bob: Yeah, these are criminals whose full-time job it is who are now using billion-dollar technology all to attack you and find you at your weakest moment. I would never blame someone for that.

[00:27:41] Michelle Singletary: Right.

[00:27:42] Bob: For three decades Michelle has acted as the tough cookie for Washington Post readers, so I couldn't resist asking her a few broader questions.

[00:27:52] Bob: Okay, since I have you here, there's a couple other things I want to ask you about. One is, I saw a column that you wrote, I think this is a bit ago, but it was about young people trusting social media for investing advice.

[00:28:04] Michelle Singletary: Oh yeah. Oh.

[00:28:05] Bob: And this sort of trap that is. Can you talk about that a little bit?

[00:28:08] Michelle Singletary: There's a couple things; I think young people are so bright these days, and they really want to handle their money well. And so there is so much information online about investing and saving, and so they're looking for information so they become better money managers. So I think that's a good thing that there's more information out there where people are trying to help them. But the problem is, there is so much trash out there, so much misinformation and incorrect information that it's hard for them to sometimes tell the difference. So if you are just looking for information for research purposes, okay, look at some of the videos, whatever. But don't act on that. Then I would need you to jump out and go and find a legitimate, unbiased source, because a lot of these people, they call them influencers, right? And so what does that mean? They're being influenced by someone else, a company, and some, a lot of times it's a scammer. You have to always question why would they, if this is such a great tactic, why are they telling me? I would just, like why wouldn't they just be getting rich on their own?

[00:29:11] Bob: Good question.

[00:29:13] Michelle Singletary: So if you see a video that says you should be investing, okay you're thinking, I should be investing. But then hop out of that and go to one of the legitimate companies to find out how to invest. And I just, because and, and the videos are done so well, they're so good, and again AI makes it seem so real, but a lot of the information will steer you wrong and take your hard-earned money or put, or lead you down a path that is too risky for you as a new investor.

[00:29:43] Bob: There is this big trend a year or two ago where people's Instagram accounts would get hacked, and then suddenly people would get messages from say, my account saying, hey, invest in this crypto, I just made a bunch of money. Here's a picture of a check. That's the kind of thing, the kind of slop, frankly, that you get on social media, right?

[00:30:01] Michelle Singletary: That's right, and the check looks so legitimate. And I've covered scams and I, there was one scammer that actually ended up doing some jail time, and I went on the website and I'm telling you, that was the most sophisticated website. I could see why people would think that it was completely legitimate. It was so well done. It was just, it was brilliant, really. And I can see why people would have fallen with it. It would show how much money you had, it would show your returns, all a lie, all a lie. No returns whatsoever. They weren't even investing in the thing that they said they were investing in it. And so you just can't, again, we go back to that, that index card LIE; LIE-LIE-LIE. (chuckles) And so that goes back to have an accountability person. I am my family's accountability person, so I, I mentioned that my sister got one of these calls, and she contacted me immediately. And here's what I did. I was in the middle of work trying to file my column for The Washington Post. I was on a deadline; I was on a serious deadline. Do you know that I stopped and took her call and answered her right away because I didn't want some scammer to get into her head between the times that she communicated with me. And so you want to find someone that you can bounce these things off of. And so you agree to each other that if you get something like that, we're going to call and text to, to, to help calm you down. And I think that's another safety measure that you can use to help yourself. If you're a person that sort of responds to that kind of thing, you're a Nervous Nellie, as they say, then you need to find someone who tends to have a cooler head. That might be me, my husband's like that. If I get all hyper and I'll call him, he says, "Now, let's calm down, let's walk this through, let's talk about it." And that's the kind of thing. We all have to help each other because the scammers are so sophisticated and they're so good at what they're doing. And so if you're listening and you're that person, volunteer in your family. Send a text message after you listen to this podcast. Send it to your... if you're that person, say hey fam, I'm really good at this. I'm a skeptic. You know how I am. I'm a bulldog. If you get any of this, you call me and so I can help you walk through this, even if there's something, the IRS is going to be knocking on your door, and I think that you'll do your family a, a service by letting them know that you'll be there for them if this, this kind of thing happens.

[00:32:24] Bob: That, that you're available for a quick text message anytime.

[00:32:28] Michelle Singletary: Yeah, not me personally, yeah, don't be calling... (laughs)

[00:32:31] Bob: Not you, no.

[00:32:32] Michelle Singletary: Not me personally, but if you have somebody in your family at home or a friend group, or maybe even a coworker.

[00:32:38] Bob: Church members, yeah.

[00:32:39] Michelle Singletary: Yeah.

[00:32:39] Bob: And being that person in your friend group is a really valuable thing.

[00:32:41] Michelle Singletary: I think it is, absolutely.

[00:32:43] Bob: Yeah. And just to point out, if someone who's listening doesn't feel like they have that person, they do have the fraud, the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline which is there all the time, and you can always give them a call for this kind of sanity check that we're talking about.

[00:32:57] Michelle Singletary: That's right. That's, actually I'm glad you mentioned that. If you don't have someone, the AARP website is just incredibly helpful even if you just take a second to just te--, I mean you'll see so many stories that you'll go, wait a minute, this is probably not right. And that alone, even if you don't click on any of them, I think will help give, institute a pause that you need to put just some time between you and what that person is telling you.

[00:33:24] Bob: The Fraud Watch Network Helpline number is 877-908-3360, and volunteers are ready to have these kinds of conversations with you for free.

[00:33:36] Bob: Okay, I can't have you and not ask you this question and, and by way of preface, I think it is a wonderful thing to do this for a long time and it better be because I've done it for that long. In all the years that you've been doing this, what have you seen that's changed, or what's, what's new about dealing with scams today verse maybe when you started?

[00:33:56] Michelle Singletary: I think the word is sophistication. They've become, they have perfected the, the pitches. And it's just, it's really scary. It's the phone calls sound so real. You might get an email from a friend and it has their exact email address, because you say, hover over it, and if it's some weird email, it's not legit, you hover over it and it is your friend's email address. You pick up the phone call and it sounds like your son, it sounds like your wife, and it's their voice. You get the message and it's so well written that you think how could this not be legitimate. And so they've stepped up the game so that the ruse, the, it's so real, it feels so real. And I think that's the difference and it's so tragic because people are losing so much money. And really the two cohorts that are use--, losing the most money are young adults; they lose just as much, they, they are scammed as much as seniors, except they aren't, they don't lose as much money. And so those two groups, why younger adults? 'Cause they're online. And why older adults? 'Cause that's where the money is. That's who has the money. They've worked all their lives and they've got the savings. They can get into our phones, they can get into our direct messages, and I think that's the difference. The technology has allowed them to invade our life in a way that makes it sound, not makes it, it's very realistic. They have our information. They can give you your Social Security number and tell you what your spouse's name is, how many children you have, what bank that you bank at, 'cause they've stolen data from these data breaches. And you don't know what to believe anymore. And I think that's the difference.

[00:35:48] Bob: You don't know what to believe so just think of it all as a lie.

[00:35:50] Michelle Singletary: As a lie. If it's your momma calling it's a lie, if it's your husband calling, it's a lie until proven otherwise.

[00:35:59] Bob: It's a lie unless proven otherwise. Take that advice to the bank. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:36:13] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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