Realtor’s Identity Stolen to Defraud Renters

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[00:00:02] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Daniel Baptiste: My phone just had like 12 to 13 notifications from my Zillow showing time app, and that app is for realtors to where like we can schedule private tours for clients. And I'm like, wait, I'm not showing a house in Lafayette. I'm not showing houses in New Iberia. It was like just all over Louisiana. I'm like, wait, something isn't right.

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[00:00:32] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:37] Bob: Looking for a new home can be so stressful. It's a huge life decision, and even if you find the perfect place, there's still all those logistics around moving you have to figure out. And it's always a leap of faith that you'll get along with neighbors, that there won't be some hidden problem as soon as you move in, and that when you right that first check for the deposit, that well you really have a new home. So maybe you trust a professional to handle all the details, but what if that professional isn't who he says he is? Today's story involves an old scam, identity theft, tied up with a host of new problems, a diabolical combination of crimes that leaves multiple victims in its wake. Among them, a New Orleans are firefighter with a 3-year-old and a baby on the way. We'll meet him in a moment. But we begin with Siearra Perio, who, well is dreaming of moving into a bigger home, and thought she'd found one online.

[00:01:40] Bob: Tell me what you liked about the place.

[00:01:42] Siearra Perio: Everything. The interior, the outside, everything was nice. The rooms was nice. So my daughter actually found it on Zillow.

[00:01:50] Bob: Okay, so your daughter emailed you a Zillow link or something?

[00:01:53] Siearra Perio: Uh-huh.

[00:01:54] Bob: And tell me how, how does that work then. So how did you reach out about the apartment?

[00:01:58] Siearra Perio: So the number was on the, was on a website, and it was like you could pick the number and call it.

[00:02:02] Bob: She calls and the person Siearra talks with about the listing says he's a licensed broker representing the landlord. He says he's this guy.

[00:02:13] Daniel Baptiste: I'm Daniel Baptiste. I'm a New Orleans firefighter/realtor.

[00:02:18] Bob: And like just about everyone who lives in New Orleans, Daniel loves New Orleans.

[00:02:25] Daniel Baptiste: I've been here over 37 years, but I had the opportunity to go to other states, and for some reason I always find my way home.

[00:02:33] Bob: You have a 3-year-old and your wife is expecting, right?

[00:02:35] Daniel Baptiste: Yes.

[00:02:37] Bob: Before we talk about your real estate work, tell me, how did you end up being a firefighter?

[00:02:41] Daniel Baptiste: About five years ago I was just thinking about like something noble, and I got a friend of mine, and we went on a mission trip to Honduras to drill for wells, for water wells, and he was telling me about, "Hey man, the fire department is hiring. They have some good incentives, bonuses and then like education. You can get so like even if you don't want to stay forever you can like get a steppingstone to advance your career in other activities in this world. So I just went because they was hiring, and I went to because it was a noble thing to do.

[00:03:11] Bob: Tell people who aren't familiar with it, what the life of a firefighter is like.

[00:03:16] Daniel Baptiste: Well the life of a firefighter is, it has its ups and down because it takes a toll on your health because of we're on duty for 24 hours, and we have 48 hours off.

[00:03:28] Bob: And you have to stay up for 24 straight hours, right?

[00:03:31] Daniel Baptiste: Yes, you have to stay up, but you have time like after 4 pm, you can actually probably take like a little nap or something just to kind of help yourself to be aware of the next situation, because sometimes at my station, it fluctuates. So sometimes we would not have one single call between 7 in the morning... I'm sorry, my daughter just walked in. I'm so sorry about that. Can you, I told you to go in the back.

[00:03:55] Bob: No worries.

[00:03:57] Daniel Baptiste: I'm sorry, be quiet. I'm sorry, Daddy's on the phone.

[00:04:01] Bob: 3-year-olds are going to 3-year-old and that's just fine.

[00:04:04] Daniel Baptiste: Yeah, I'm so sorry about that.

[00:04:06] Bob: Don't, don't be silly, no, don't be silly.

[00:04:07] Daniel Baptiste: Yeah, so the, the night shift is kind of the tough shift because we respond a lot, that if there is a fire, there's a fire. We also are medical, we do medicals too, because we're EMTs as well, and we respond to on the scenes of different accidents, different, all type of things. Some things is not too good to talk about because visually, we don't see a lot of good things. So it could take a toll on me mentally. And then my family, it takes a toll on them because I'm gone for 24 hours, and my wife has to do all the work while I'm gone, and it takes a toll on her and the family, and I miss a lot, like I missed my daughter when she first started walking, but those typical things, you kind of, but it's also a good thing too, but it has its gifts and curses.

[00:04:54] Bob: But all that certainly takes a toll and we haven't even mentioned the physical part of the job. This can be very physically demanding too, right?

[00:05:00] Daniel Baptiste: It is, but it also, it keeps me stronger so that I'm constantly working out, I'm constantly trying to feed myself better, because you can fall into that potbelly fireman after so many years from eating. A lot of people around the area will come bring desserts, they'll bring cookies, and if it's Mardi Gras time, they bring in King cakes with the cream cheese fillings, and it's like, I'm going to just have a piece, but then some people just can't, they don't have self-control and then we're on duty for 24 hours, and sometimes people get bored of whatever the case may be, and they've just have to eat.

[00:05:32] Bob: Plus you've got to find the king, right? You've got to keep eating until you get the king.

[00:05:34] Daniel Baptiste: Yeah, yeah. (chuckles) Yeah.

[00:05:38] Bob: So for all those reasons Daniel decides he wants to start pursuing a career in real estate. He wants a better life for his family, and after a few bumps in the road, he was able to finally secure his license earlier this year. But that is just step one of becoming a real estate agent. Success can come very slowly in this field. It's hard to get those first few clients.

[00:06:02] Daniel Baptiste: So it's kind of a mindset you have to have, you have to adapt and overcome, and I have a mentor, he's actually like in the 1% of the city, and he's top agent. He's been doing it for 15 years, and he told me advices like, look, the main thing which knocks people out of this game is they give up in the first 6 months to a year. You have to stick it out and you have to stay consistent. Doing open houses, building a rapport with people in neighborhoods, it's like, hey come check out my open house. So you have to be able to navigate yourself through this, these areas to be able to promote and get people to want to take a chance on you. So it's hard because it takes, some people don't get a first sale until they're a year and a half.

[00:06:47] Bob: Wow.

[00:06:49] Bob: Still, Daniel is committed. He uses his off days as a firefighter to do anything he can to get his name out there. And then one day, he's suddenly overwhelmed with messages.

[00:07:02] Bob: Your phone starts blowing up, right? Tell me what happened?

[00:07:05] Daniel Baptiste: Yeah, this had to be May 31st going into June 1st about 9 am in the morning. I actually woke up feeling excited. I was ready to just keep myself moving and my phone just had like 12 to 13 notifications from my Zillow showing time app, and that app is for realtors to where like we can schedule private tours for clients. And I'm like, wait, I'm not showing a house in Lafayette. I'm not showing houses in New Iberia. It was like just all over Louisiana. I'm like, wait, something isn't right.

[00:07:40] Bob: Someone is arranging client meetings for Daniel all over the state. And it's not him.

[00:07:47] Daniel Baptiste: Yes, it was just coming through. I'm like, wait, what is this?

[00:07:50] Bob: Like you don't even have time to read them and another one's coming there, right?

[00:07:51] Daniel Baptiste: Yes.

[00:07:55] Bob: So Daniel calls his mentor to ask what she thinks might be happening.

[00:07:59] Daniel Baptiste: So I explained to her that I had the 17 notifications, and she was like, "Did you give access to something?" And it's like, I'm like, "No. I didn't click an email, I didn't do nothing." And she was like, "Hmm." So she said, "Maybe you need to call NOMAR because NOMAR has access that we get from for the MLS system and the Zillow showing time."

[00:08:19] Bob: NOMAR is the New Orleans Metropolitan Association of Realtors, and MLS is a multiple listing system that agents use.

[00:08:27] Daniel Baptiste: So I called and I expressed to them what was going on. They was like, give them a few minutes, they're going to look into it, and then they seen that hey, is your email (bleep) @hotmail. I said, of course not. It's (bleep).com. And he was like, "Well nah, this saying that somebody then hacked you." And I was just like, I just felt like a, a drop in my stomach. And I'm like, oh man, don't tell me I'm being hacked, 'cause I'm thinking about my finances, I'm thinking about all my stuff that's on my phone. I'm like, oh no, don't tell me this is happening at the first beginning of my business. Like I'm literally only like a few months in.

[00:09:07] Bob: Only a few months in trying to make a name for himself. Daniel has been hacked. Now what would someone want to do with Daniel's realtor account? Well for one, the criminal could post listings in his name, listings that would look very authentic, that would populate across sites like Zillow. And that would get in front of home searchers like Siearra. Remember, she had called about a listing posted by an agent Baptiste, who tells Siearra she could take a self-tour of the listing. He gives her a code to open a lockbox with the keys. When she gets there, that first home was no longer available, but the agent has a second place for rent, and...

[00:09:48] Siearra Perio: So we looked at the next house and I'm like, oh my God, I'm glad that other house wasn't available, 'cause I love this house. He gave the, the numbers to the lockbox for us to enter the house and view the house and everything. I did a video in the house and all because I was claiming that I was going to get this house.

[00:10:05] Bob: So then well did you call the agent from inside the house and say I want to rent this?

[00:10:10] Siearra Perio: Yes, I did.

[00:10:11] Bob: And then what did he say?

[00:10:12] Daniel Baptiste: He said, oh great, well we can start the application process and do the application fee and do the application and from there pay us the deposit or whatever in portions and then we're able to move in the house.

[00:10:27] Bob: The application process, naturally includes a deposit.

[00:10:33] Bob: How much was the deposit?

[00:10:35] Siearra Perio: The deposit was $1453.

[00:10:40] Bob: $1453. So you had to like send him a money order or something? How did you send the money?

[00:10:46] Siearra Perio: Zelle and Chime.

[00:10:48] Bob: Siearra has to send that money in phases. She's still got all her other bills to pay, but after two weeks, all the deposit has been paid and she's ready to move in. In fact...

[00:11:00] Siearra Perio: So we had ourselves packed and everything. Had we moved...

[00:11:03] Bob: You had everything packed?

[00:11:04] Siearra Perio: Yes. We were ready to go. Yes, we were.

[00:11:09] Bob: But there is one hiccup. As she's packing, she keeps asking about getting a signed lease, and...

[00:11:16] Siearra Perio: So no, when I started asking about the lease, that's when things got funny, when I asked him about the lease, when I asked him about he claimed he drove trucks. Alright, I know a lot of landlords, they do other things besides rent houses out. He says he drove trucks and couldn’t be on the phone as much where he was gonna text me or he can call me whenever he can.

[00:11:38] Bob: Then when it comes time to get the keys to the place and move in...

[00:11:42] Siearra Perio: So that's when the thing came about is he was going to call his wife and his wife was going to meet me with the keys. I waited forever, so the day goes on, and I'm like, I'm finding it kind of strange that the wife hasn't called me yet. At that point, that's when my antennas when up. Something is not right about this.

[00:12:00] Bob: No phone call from his wife. No keys. No lease. Lots of worry.

[00:12:07] Siearra Perio: So I'm sitting there, and I'm just thinking to myself again, like I said, red flags all around at this point.

[00:12:14] Bob: So at this point, Siearra goes back to the original listing for the home she thinks she's going to rent.

[00:12:20] Siearra Perio: I get back on the website and I'm like, let me look at this house again. And that number was no longer on the first house. So I called the realtor that was on the, the information that was on that site, Zillow at that time I called, and when I called her, she said, baby, she was like, I asked her about the house, I said I was inquiring about this house at such and such avenue, and I was trying to see if it was still available. She told me, “Yes it was.” So from there I was like, tell me this, I say, "Is this for rent or is this for sale?" I said, "And do you have another landlord working on this house?" She say, "Baby, you been scammed."

[00:12:56] Bob: Ugh.

[00:12:59] Siearra Perio: She say, "You're not the first person he did this to."

[00:13:02] Bob: Siearra was inside the home she thought she was about to rent, and she sent a deposit to a man she thought was Daniel Baptiste, but instead of a new home, Siearra learns she is the victim of a rental scam. And she's not the only one. Meanwhile, Daniel's phone is still blowing up with fraudulent listings and showings. He realizes he is in a race against time.

[00:13:27] Daniel Baptiste: Well, for the, I want to say after I got off the phone with NOMAR, we was on the phone for maybe 30, 40 minutes, and then he was letting me know to contact Zillow Showing Time to see if they had, how did they get access to that to be able to schedule these showings. So when I called, she was like, "Yes, they have 12 or 13 listings under your name that's for sale, but they're showing for rent. Are these your listings?" I said, "Of course not." I said, "I don't even have a listing yet. I'm a new agent. I'm just starting. I don't even have any, a business yet."

[00:14:05] Bob: It's a full-on panic. Daniel tries to wrest control of the account from the hackers, but...

[00:14:12] Daniel Baptiste: I couldn't, every time I would log into my MLS, he would immediately kick me out. And then he would reset the password, and I'm like, and I couldn't get in, so they just was like, well, let me put this security thing on it and then we're going to try that. But it wasn't working. It, they kept going in and kept kicking me out. Kept logging in, and they kept kicking me out, and I just got real, I got a little upset.

[00:14:36] Bob: Meanwhile, the criminal is hijacking real estate listings from other agents, posting them as rentals, and generally making a mess of the system, ruining Daniel's good name.

[00:14:46] Bob: And first of all, you're thinking every one of these agents is going to hate me, right?

[00:14:50] Daniel Baptiste: Yes.

[00:14:51] Bob: Oh God. And you can't get it stopped. Oh, what a helpless feeling, wow.

[00:14:55] Daniel Baptiste: Yeah.

[00:14:57] Bob: But one small grace of the moment, many agents are understanding and even genuinely helpful.

[00:15:04] Daniel Baptiste: A lot of agents showed more like concern and like not like judging me, they were like, oh, I'm so sorry this happened to you, and they were just like spreading the word throughout the state.

[00:15:15] Bob: That's really impressive. For the most part the agents were sympathetic to you, not angry at you you're telling me.

[00:15:19] Daniel Baptiste: Yes.

[00:15:21] Bob: One of the victims even lets Daniel listen in on a call with his impostor.

[00:15:26] Daniel Baptiste: I was like, oh okay, so I, me like grabbed my wife's phone and I started recording and then she went to kind of like, fishing him into ask him like, where do you want to send the money? What's your name?

[00:15:38] (call clip) Go through the references and review the requirements, okay? So um, once everything goes well, since we have other the people trying to look at the house, you know we, we really see how you can be once you move into our home, I'll let you know. I was trying to just move forward with you because you know there are other people uh trying to look at a house, they're looking to move in in two months. So you know we will be looking for something as soon as possible.

[00:16:05] Bob: So here's this person that's tormenting you for weeks, and you get to hear his voice?

[00:16:10] Daniel Baptiste: Yes.

[00:16:11] Bob: What is that like?

[00:16:12] Daniel Baptiste: It was, it was so much of me to, I wanted to take that phone off mute so bad and like just literally just give him a piece of my mind.

[00:16:21] Bob: But you got to see the techniques that the criminals use to pressure people to send money, right?

[00:16:25] Daniel Baptiste: Yes.

[00:16:26] Bob: Meanwhile, it's interesting while he was trying to manipulate her, she was trying to manipulate him into confessing, right?

[00:16:31] Daniel Baptiste: Yes.

[00:16:33] Bob: But days, weeks, months go by, and Daniel still keeps getting notifications that he's attached to listings that, well he has nothing to do with.

[00:16:44] Bob: God, I'm so sorry. That sounds so frustrating. Can you give people any idea what that feels like, do you think, 'cause now we're talking about it's been half a year, right?

[00:16:53] Daniel Baptiste: Yeah, man, it is just a point where I just was like, hey, I'm starting a business and then soon as I start the business, I got hacked at a level which no agent ever went through.

[00:17:04] Bob: Also infuriating, he has a few clients who want to work with him, but he still has trouble accessing the system and posting legitimate listings. Yes, the criminal can post fraudulent listings, but he can’t post real ones. How many people did the criminal steal money from?

[00:17:21] Daniel Baptiste: Uh, I think about at least 10 to 12 people that I know off the head is that's been, that's put in money.

[00:17:29] Bob: One of them is Siearra Perio.

[00:17:33] Siearra Perio: So had she came, and we went there that Wednesday, sorry, that Tuesday. Had we moved in there Tuesday when she must have went there that Wednesday, we would have labeled as squatters because the car would have been outside, all our stuff would have been in that house.

[00:17:49] Bob: Oh my God, and you might have lost your home, the other home, right?

[00:17:53] Siearra Perio: I would have lost my other home. I would have lost this home. I would have went to jail for something that I didn't even know I did wrong.

[00:17:59] Bob: That's just, that's really scary.

[00:18:02] Bob: And she had about $1500 stolen from her.

[00:18:07] Bob: Yeah, when she said you were scammed, how did that feel?

[00:18:12] Siearra Perio: Like there was just a whole weight just fell on my shoulders, because what? I never heard of people scamming houses. I had heard of scams but not scamming houses, that's crazy to me.

[00:18:24] Bob: Yeah.

[00:18:24] Siearra Perio: There's so many other people whom I talked to, it was like I never heard of that either.

[00:18:30] Bob: But that's not the last she hears from the fake Daniel Baptiste.

[00:18:34] Siearra Perio: Yes, he, he actually called me when I was on the phone with the other realtor.

[00:18:38] Bob: Oh my God.

[00:18:39] Siearra Perio: And when he called, I said, he said, "How are you doing?" I said, "Not good." I said, "You must have scammed us." Oh he said, "I didn't scam you." I said, "Yes, you did." I said, "That's why your wife, your supposedly wife never came to meet me with the key, and you're telling lies saying you drive trucks," I said, "because there was never a wife, and there never you driving a truck. You're not a landlord." He hung up the phone.

[00:19:02] Bob: She does go to the police. They tell her they already know about the crime.

[00:19:07] Siearra Perio: They really was on this case already. Dealing with the same person they believe it was the same person that's been doing this to everybody. He's not only doing it in Marrero not only in Louisiana period, but in Colorado, in Arkansas and stuff also.

[00:19:21] Bob: Wow. But now you have to go start looking for a, another home again, right?

[00:19:26] Siearra Perio: Right.

[00:19:27] Bob: That must have been so frustrating.

[00:19:29] Siearra Perio: It's very discouraging actually. Because now it's like you don't know who to trust. I know I can't even look on Zillow anymore for a house. I have to go walk, ride around and look for a house, because I don't trust it.

[00:19:41] Bob: How much did that hurt though, the money these guys stole from you? How much does that hurt?

[00:19:45] Siearra Perio: So I put it in my mind I can't cry over spilled milk. What's done is done. I Just know for next time and I want to say my words so it don't happen to anybody else. Because that's not right. You're taking people's hard-earned money.

[00:20:01] Bob: In this one scam, about a dozen people's hard-earned money, all who were just looking for a home. And remember, the criminal took Daniel Baptiste's good name too. And six weeks later, he's still dealing with it.

[00:20:16] Daniel Baptiste: This is like the guy was changing numbers, he was moving, he was still using my name.

[00:20:22] Bob: Oh my God.

[00:20:24] Daniel Baptiste: I want this business to work, and I was just upset and I was exhausted because I was just thinking about it. You're getting 15 to 20 calls a day, and it was just like, it was man, it was exhausting. You got people that was just like man, I can't believe this happened to you, and then they had a new agent that she just listed her first home, and she got a showing, and she was so excited about it. "Oh, I got a first showing." Then they called me and were like, "Hey, how did the showing go?" I'm like, "Unfortunately, I'm sorry, it was hack--, it was a hacker. That wasn't me." And she was like, "Oh man, I was so excited 'cause I finally got somebody want to look at my house." And I'm like, I say, "Look, I'm terribly sorry." I'm like, "I'm working on it."

[00:21:03] Bob: And working on it and working on it. Meanwhile, his wife is worried about the toll it's taking on him.

[00:21:11] Daniel Baptiste: She's like, "You need to just, you're just consumed like this." All I was able to see is like, this is my name. I'm like, my name was very important to me. I said, this is all I have is my name. I said, any day you take anything from me, my name is my, that's like that's who I am. And for you to take this and belittle my character, I'm about integrity.

[00:21:30] Bob: Working on it also includes a visit to the police station where Daniel files a police report, and that's not exactly a fun time for him either.

[00:21:39] Daniel Baptiste: And I never like did things like this, like I never been in a police station. That was my first time, and I'm 37 years old. I've never been nowhere near police. I've never been in a car; I've never been in an interrogation room. I've never been in none of that, so it was like, I'm thinking I'm going to go ahead, leave this report and go. That's what everybody was telling me. And when the lady at the front desk heard my story, she was like, "Hold on." She said, "This is too much." She said, "I have to link you with a detective." And I'm like, okay. And she was like, the detective come down. They bring me in the room, where they, where they interrogate the, the criminals and stuff like that, and then the double mirror. I'm like, my first time seeing all this. I say, "Wait, hold on. Why you all bringing me in here?" She like, "Oh because we want to record the conversation, so I don't miss nothing." So she was kind of asking me some of the same questions you was asking and then...

[00:22:26] Bob: And you're sitting in an interrogation room with a double mirror like you've seen on television. That must be pretty intimidating.

[00:22:32] Daniel Baptiste: It was, 'cause to be honest with you, I was like I was uncomfortable. I'm like, man, this is not how I'm feeling. So it was a different experience. The officer, she was nice, and she helped me out the best way she can, and it's only so much you can do.

[00:22:47] Bob: But it's another experience like so many of us have; when you're a victim, you end up having to go through these things that feel kind of terrible, and you feel like a criminal, right?

[00:22:55] Daniel Baptiste: Yes.

[00:22:57] Bob: The police are helpful, but the trouble remains until a fellow agent has a fresh idea.

[00:23:04] Daniel Baptiste: Yeah, it was going on for a month and a half and the older agent, she called me, she was saying, "Any way I can help?" So she went to spreading the word and that she was spreading the word, I was telling her like I wonder if it was over. She said, "Well no because they have a new listing that just dropped under your name." I was like, oh man. So I was like, you know what, I'm just tired of this. I said, "I'm going to the news." And then that's when she was like, "Hey, you serious about going to the news?" I said, "Yes." I said, "I have to shine light on this because not only that I have been hit so hard, I don't want other people to have to keep going through this." And she was like, "Well I have a, a cousin was actual Darryl Forges, that was at Channel 6."

[00:23:45] Bob: So they call, and within a few days in early July, Daniel is on New Orleans TV, WBSU, talking about his misfortune.

[00:23:54] (newsclip) If you are in the market to rent a home, listen up. There was a major concern that law enforcement wants you to know about this morning. Victims say a hacker is stealing realtors' identities posting homes on the market for rent and taking thousands of dollars.

[00:24:09] Bob: Between the police report and the TV spot, the fraudulent calls finally stop. A few stray fake listings with his name and number pop up here and there, but Daniel is hopeful the worst is over.

[00:24:21] Bob: Do you have any idea why the criminals picked you?

[00:24:23] Daniel Baptiste: At first I was just like, maybe because I'm a new agent, and maybe they felt like I was more gullible to the point where I wouldn't catch it as much or wouldn't notice. And that's just from research. I was googling things, I went to looking up things and talking to people, like what made you think they wanted to target me. Say, man, maybe because you was new, and depending on what you knew, you're not using the MLS as much, so they feel like the account could have been a little not as, vacant, you know it was more va...

[00:24:53] Bob: So perhaps, because Daniel is a busy firefighter and just getting started, that's why he was hit by this crime. Wow. But Daniel has managed to find a silver lining in all of this.

[00:25:07] Daniel Baptiste: And I'm like, it just took me a, a couple of weeks to actually build the courage to say, you know what, I'm not going to be a victim. I'm going to be a victor. And this is going to turn around for my good, and me and my mom, it's a funny story. We went to go see the Michael Jackson movie, and I get a phone call in the middle of the movie saying like, "Daniel, I don't know what's going on. I know you have a lot going on, but I have my daughter, and she wants to sell her home." And I'm like, my mom immediately looks, she says, "See. It's going to come around."

[00:25:41] Bob: And sure enough, that one call turns into, well a steady stream of calls.

[00:25:47] Daniel Baptiste: And I feel I didn't think I was going to ever get to a point where I'm at now, and actually, there is some light at the end of the tunnel, but I had to see it. I had to see the situation to be turned around for my good, and it gave me a lot of exposure. A lot of people that didn't know me, actually know me now, and clients that felt bad for me that called me was like, hey, I'm sorry that that happened to you. She say, "Well look, I was actually looking for a listing, even though I understand you was hacked, whenever you get your credentials back, if you would take my contact, I would like to work with you." So it was like this kind of opened up the door for leads to generate, because people felt sorry for me to want to help me.

[00:26:31] Bob: That's a really positive way to look at it, but I'm guessing that while this turned out to be kind of a clever marketing thing for you, that you wouldn't recommend this to other agents.

[00:26:40] Daniel Baptiste: Oh no, I don't want you to get hacked. I don't want that to happen. But if it so happens it does, don't let it, don't let it ruin you.

[00:26:51] Bob: Well what is it that you want people to learn listening to your story?

[00:26:54] Daniel Baptiste: I want them to learn to be aware of if it's too good to be true, most likely it is. Like if you see a beautiful home, and it's showing you, oh, 4 bedroom, 3, 4 baths, wonderful home, and it's only $1300 a month, that's a red flag, 'cause in today's market, uh-uh. You're not getting that unless somebody give it away. And watching these emails because some of them can look very real and original. I would say just make sure that you really read thoroughly. Don't click random links. And also, I did... get this, a friend of mine just recently told me that he was sent a fraudulent email and it was a buyer. This is what they do. They will email you and say, "Hey, I'm a cash buyer, and I want to talk to you via Zoom." And they will send you, they will say, "I will send you the link." So don't let that fool you. Because we don't work that way. We don't want, if you're a client, we are going to send you the Zoom link. It's not the other way around. And as for like deposits, we do no cash deposits, no Zelle deposits. So just being aware of listening to like really thoroughly listening to, if you're talking to someone, listen to their conversation to see if it's weird.

[00:28:19] Bob: So what do you want people to remember when they hear you talk about this, when they hear your story?

[00:28:22] Siearra Perio: Always remember, meet the landlord in person. Meet them in person so you have an idea who you know that you're dealing with. Please, please, please, meet every landlord. Ask for identification. Make sure the paperwork is legit. Don't do anything online unless they're right there in front of you sending this paperwork, and you know for sure that it is legit.

[00:28:46] Bob: Please, please, please. That sounds like a really strong message.

[00:28:51] Bob: Yeah, well I really hope you do find a dream house. I think you're owed some good luck by now.

[00:28:54] Siearra Perio: Thank you.

[00:28:56] Bob: Please, please, please be careful when you're trying to find a new home. It is so hard for many people right now. Competition is fierce in some places, and that makes an already challenging environment so much harder on consumers. Yes, there are red flags to look for, but the crimes are so much more sophisticated now, it’s really not fair to put the onus on people who just want a place to live, who just looking for a home. So to talk more about these red flags, and also more about what we can do to protect consumers, we have Nia Duggins here. She is Senior Policy Representative at the National Association of Realtors. 

[00:29:33] Nia Duggins: There are several different types of scams within the real estate industry, and this is a type of, honestly it's like a rental scam, right? So they're taking like legitimate listings, and they are making them illegitimate for elicit and illegal purposes, right? So to steal money, to steal the identity of prospective buyers, but in this instance, it's prospective renters. And so it if something that is coming up and becoming more prevalent. I think as time goes on, one of the things that we're finding is that many scammers are becoming a lot more sophisticated in what they're able to do and technology also is empowering them, unfortunately, in many ways. So yes, this definitely does come up, but it's really a combination of identity theft and then also a rental scam as well.

[00:30:32] Bob: Once upon a time, fake Craig List posts were a typical form of rental scams. Now the crimes are far more complex and so sophisticated that even professionals are vulnerable.

[00:30:45] Nia Duggins: The amount of money a lot of the times that is lost is a lot of, it's higher stakes, right? It's higher stakes. The level of technology, sophistication, and also the way that many scammers are able to hide behind or really like fail to disclose their true identity, right, so it can happen in many ways in a very, yes, I know that a very sophisticated manner, and it's very hard to tell and differentiate for consumers, clients, and even sometimes for professionals, whether they are dealing with a legitimate person or not. So a lot of the time it's very layered, especially when there are crimes that take place over the internet. One, sometimes it's very challenging to trace and track where a potential scammer is physically located and how the like crime or wrong is taking place, right? So it could be happening overseas, it could be happening domestically, right, but it's very hard to do that and to unpack that at times.

[00:31:51] Bob: Just to make sure everyone knows how a scam listing can spread so far and wide, I asked Nia to define the MLS systems that agents use and websites like Zillow use.

[00:32:02] Nia Duggins: There are what are considered multiple listing services, and/or also known as MLSs. So multiple listing services ideally are centralized hubs where like consumers and also real estate professionals can learn about what listings are available. So for example, if a seller is looking to sell his or her home, they would, you can sell on your own, but if you enlist a real estate professional, that real estate professional would list the property for you and normally it's listed on a multiple listing service. And part of the purpose and reasoning for that is to get as many and the highest and best offers as possible, right? You want as many consumers as possible to be able to learn about the potential property and the prospects of that property. And the same is true for rentals. So if there's a rental, they also, rentals also can be and are listed on a multiple listing service but really is a centralized way of understanding what is on the market, what's available, the price point, and essentially the inventory that is out there. And in different markets, there are different types of multiple listing services that various real estate professionals use in order to list properties so that like I said, the information is accessible both for consumers and other real estate professionals.

[00:33:27] Bob: But to be clear, there isn't just one MLS. In fact, there are hundreds around the country, and Daniel's access to his system was hacked creating all this chaos. I asked Nia why it was so hard for him to wrestle back control of his account.

[00:33:43] Nia Duggins: So sometimes it's challenging because you have to prove in fact that you are who you say you are, right. So how can you prove that with, if we think about even some of the large social media companies; when we sign some of the ascent agreement in order to use social media, it could sometimes take weeks in order for an accurate information to be made accurate on those sites, right? Whether it be for a business or any other individual. And the same is true when there's a crime that takes place. In order to for like there to be information sometimes to be turned over from a social media company to law enforcement, there has to be a subpoena. So the same can be true in instances of identity theft. It can take additional time for there to be a vetting process to assess whether this person is in fact who they truly say that they are, right? So there may be, for example, a process where there has to be a vetting through the real estate commission to assess, okay, what is this person's license, what is the name and address that we have on file, and what is the license number? So there are other third parties sometimes that are needed that have to be engaged in order to verify and to update everything to make sure that it's legitimate and for that person to regain control.

[00:35:01] Bob: Okay, so how should consumers protect themselves?

[00:35:05] Nia Duggins: Working with real estate professionals, always verifying, doing some type of research or due diligence is always important. So conducting some type of research, calling, researching to understand the property, understanding, even looking at maybe county records and looking at public records to assess who the true owner is or to find out, even if it's a legal entity that may own the property, understanding the dynamics of who owns the property if you're looking at for housing. Not sending any type of money immediately. I would say like assessing and vetting any contract. So even prior to signing a lease or any type of written agreement, consumers should request a copy of the agreement 48 hours from prior to any sign. And it can be earlier than that, but that is at a minimum and that will allow the consumer sufficient time to review the document, raise any questions, or if there are things that the, the consumer would like to amend, that is the proper time to raise it. But making sure that there is some type of due diligence, and like I said, it, I would also recommend seeing the property in person. There are a lot of, especially during COVID, and even coming out of COVID given the, the competition in the market, there are some renters and also some buyers that will sometimes seek to purchase or rent units sight unseen, right, without seeing them at all, but I would advise, strongly advise and recommend seeing the property in person with a real estate professional.

[00:36:47] Bob: And with just a little more legwork, you can unearth records that can give you a lot more security.

[00:36:53] Nia Duggins: Looking at the property records, going physically like to the neighborhood as well sometimes can be helpful. Verifying, like I said, if you verify sometimes with the tax records, you can look at sometimes utility bills as well such as a water bill, because water tends to run with the land when it comes to any type of property. So a lot of the time you can look up in many jurisdictions the water or some type of utilities on that particular property. Of course doing a basic Google search and looking at that. Sometimes you're able to also access certain title records to see ownership over time. That is always helpful, but that's not always guaranteed in every jurisdiction that one may have access to that, but there is another way to assess who the true owner is of, you know, a property.

[00:37:48] Bob: And a really, really important safety check is, well, realism. Yes, some people really do get an amazing deal on a new home but put that out of your mind. Nearly always the price you pay will be typical for that area, so...

[00:38:05] Nia Duggins: Of course also, if things seem too good to be true in terms of pricing, that's also a lot of the time an indicator that something may be off. So if the rent is appearing to be very cheap in comparison to what is going, like the cost of other rentals that are comparable in that area, that also can raise somewhat of a red flag, right, in terms of if things sometimes seem too good to be true, sometimes they are, right? Also preferred methods of payment. So if someone is saying, look, I only want to communicate on one of the messaging platforms, for example, in lieu of having a conversation or in lieu of us meeting in person, they recommend that you don't see the unit. They only recommend maybe that you do exclusively a self-guided tour or you don't need to see it. Those are the types of red flags that we want to identify and think about before we proceed sometimes. So I think collectively, it may not be one isolated, like red flag or indicator, but I think taking things in terms of a totality of the circumstances. So looking at factually what is taking place, assessing what someone is saying to you, what you're hearing, and then also, research. Google is a wonderful tool, and the internet is a powerful tool, and so we definitely should use the internet to vet, especially professionals. So if someone is saying that they are a legitimate real estate professional or any type of professional, there should be some type of vetting process that is taking place in order to assess if that person is truly who they say they are. So do they have a phone number where you can reach them? Do they have a legitimate email address that is connected to their business. Some people have brick and mortar locations, some do not, so that always can't be an indicator. But assessing what, what are the, the things that you're finding online, right?

[00:40:03] Bob: If you haven't house-hunted in a while, there's something new going on which, well, might throw you for a loop. And it definitely factored into this scam, and other scams we've reported on in The Perfect Scam. Self-guided tours. Some landlords install smart locks so prospective tenants can check out a home on their own. While that can be convenient, it has definitely opened up a line of attack for criminals who can rent an apartment or home remotely. We even did a story not long ago when a family moved into a home only to find a hacker had taken their money and another family was about to move in. Such a crazy, terrible situation. In other words, these real estate scams show it is just really, really hard for consumers to know what’s real and what not real. And when time is of the essence, like when you are looking for a home, well, we’ve put people into impossible situations. We need to do better. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:41:28] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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