Couple Held in Virtual House Arrest by FBI Impostor Scam

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[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Cathy: I just felt like this should be the happiest time of our life and something was just not sitting right. This whole situation was just like taking away from the happiness.

[00:00:13] Bob: And it literally, you're at the happiest place on earth, right? And this is happening.

[00:00:17] Mike: So we, we moved down here, and obviously, all of the plans and all the, the happy times we were envisioning had been clouded with all of this uh horrible, difficult situation.

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[00:00:36] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:40] Bob: Big life transitions. Moving, getting married, getting a new job, retiring. These can all be very time-consuming and emotionally draining. But a couple of them together, and well, that's really involved. That's what was happening to Mike and Cathy. They were moving from New Jersey to Florida, and Mike was starting to transition his business. There were boxes everywhere, forms everywhere, lots of phone calls, and that's exactly when criminals struck. Mike was attacked by something that's sometimes called the Digital Arrest Scam, which can feel like being under house arrest. Here's how this scary story unfolds. And just so you know, Mike and Cathy aren't their real names. They requested anonymity.

[00:01:23] Mike: I have a practice in New Jersey that I've decided to semi-close, so I'm continuing my practice down here while my staff remains in New Jersey, so I'm continuing to do business while I'm in retirement.

[00:01:36] Bob: But now it's, I'm sure that's complicated. But you were also really downsizing, right?

[00:01:41] Mike: Oh yeah. We went from a large home to an apartment in Florida here.

[00:01:45] Bob: Why did you make the move?

[00:01:46] Mike: We just like the weather here and we like the lifestyle here, and New Jersey had a lot of bad winters, and so...

[00:01:54] Bob: That I can relate to. And, and Cathy, shrinking from a large house to an apartment, that's pretty easy, right? That's an easy thing to do?

[00:02:01] Cathy: Well, trying to figure out what furniture fits was a little difficult, but now that we're in it, it's just much easier to maintain.

[00:02:09] Bob: Oh, that's great. But this is, Cathy, this sounds like a lot of chaos to me, a move like this.

[00:02:14] Cathy: It's, could be chaotic, yes.

[00:02:17] Bob: what was the hardest part?

[00:02:19] Cathy: Giving up a lot of our winter clothes.

[00:02:23] Bob: (chuckles) Well you don't need them anymore, right? Unless you come visit.

[00:02:27] Cathy: I hope not. Until we come back and visit the family.

[00:02:30] Bob: And right in the middle of trying to figure out what to keep and what to throw away, Mike gets a suspicious phone call, like some others he's received through the years.

[00:02:41] Bob: When this call first came, you hung up on them, right?

[00:02:44] Mike: I did more than that. I lambasted them for making the approach, and then, yeah, I hung up on them.

[00:02:51] Bob: This is a regular thing, you say you're a jerk and I'm hanging up on you, something like that?

[00:02:56] Mike: Something like that, yes.

[00:02:59] Bob: Maybe not this polite, yeah.

[00:03:01] Mike: Yes. Right.

[00:03:04] Bob: But on this day, something unexpected happens.

[00:03:08] Mike: They called me right back and wanted to know why I hung up on them. And then went on, proceeded to tell me that they were a, an agent of the uh, enforcement, and at that point I was wondering why would someone, I've gotten scam calls before. No one ever called me back.

[00:03:24] Bob: No one ever called him back. So this time Mike listens and asks questions.

[00:03:30] Mike: And I quizzed them as to who they were, and I gave, they gave me the right identification. They gave me their badge number and there were a lot of specifics about who they were and who they were calling from, the Customs Border Patrol.

[00:03:43] Bob: Calling from Customs and Border Patrol? And they have some very serious news.

[00:03:50] Mike: Yeah, exactly. Well the individual started telling me that my name was associated with a package that contained some illegal items, and they went on to describe them as a debit card, or phone sim cards and some bank cards. And that my name was used on the delivery, and it was sent from Washington DC to Vietnam, and she gave me all the info--, the particulars about where it went and who sent it and my name and my address. Yeah, no, I told them I hadn't been to Washington DC, 'cause they told me that this package was mailed from Washington DC, and I told them that I hadn't been in Washington DC for quite a while, and that it couldn't be me, but she insisted that it was, that I was involved with it.

[00:04:38] Bob: She insists he's involved, and then she insists...

[00:04:44] Mike: Yeah, so then she tells me that I need to come to Washington DC to speak to the FBI to explain that it wasn't me, and so forth. And I told her, listen, I live in New Jersey. I'm not, I can't come to Washington DC now and I'm not going to make that trip. And she said, "Well, we make a special accommodation where we can have you interviewed on video interview with an FBI officer, agent.

[00:05:10] Bob: That's a relief. He can clear up all this confusion on a simple video call. Well, not so simple. It is the FBI, but it's certainly better than a trip to DC. Cathy happens to be in the office while all this is going on.

[00:05:25] Cathy: Yes, he came out and told me that it was a very important phone call, and we should keep the phones down for the rest of the day, so I asked the staff to stay off the phones.

[00:05:35] Bob: But at that point did you know anything or get a sense that it was law enforcement or that Mike might be in trouble?

[00:05:42] Cathy: He seemed really scared. I was very concerned, but I said I wouldn't bother him until he was off the phone.

[00:05:48] Mike: But when the FBI got on, he said "You have to go to a secure area. No one else can be in the room." So I, she had to leave and I basically told, staff members that they need to stay away from my office because I was on a, an important phone call, so.

[00:06:04] Bob: And how long did the call take? Do you remember, Cathy:

[00:06:07] Cathy: Oh my gosh, it was like, I think it was like 90 minutes.

[00:06:11] Bob: Wow. So you're sitting outside in a waiting room or something for 90 minutes just...

[00:06:14] Cathy: I'm sitting at the reception desk telling everybody to stay off the phones and not do anything just until we figure out what's going on.

[00:06:21] Bob: So while Cathy sits outside in the dark watching the minutes tick by, Mike starts the FBI interview.

[00:06:30] Mike: I wait a little while, then the FBI agent gets on and tells me that I have to talk to him in a private setting, and the FBI agent identifies himself and the video is displaying him with an FBI insignia seal behind him, and he's wearing an FBI windbreaker.

[00:06:49] Bob: And Mike googles the name. It's a real FBI agent's name, so he starts the interview.

[00:06:56] Mike: I explained to him that the CBP agent said that, that I had a package and it contained these items. And I told him, "Listen it wasn't me. I didn't do this." And he said, "Well, the package contains these items. That's not such a big deal." But he has to first talk to someone else. And I had to show a photo of my ID. And he went off the phone, and I can hear him in the background with somebody that sounds like they're walking, talking on a walkie talkie in the background...

[00:07:28] Bob: And when he comes back on the phone, things escalate quickly.

[00:07:33] Mike: And he gets back on and he tells me, "Oh, this is very serious now," because my name has come up being flagged as part of an international money laundering organization. And this is a very serious charge now, and they have to take this further to a further step.

[00:07:51] Bob: Money laundering? A further step?

[00:07:55] Mike: So I was thinking that there's this huge mix-up here, that my name was being associated somehow. Someone took my, i--, identity and used it in, in association with this money laundering organization. And I, I wanted to clear my name, thinking more of how do I clear myself from this, from these charges?

[00:08:14] Bob: But this sounds scary to me. Were, were you scared?

[00:08:16] Mike: To put it lightly.

[00:08:19] Bob: And he has to face that fear alone. He can't even tell Cathy what's going on.

[00:08:25] Mike: She knew it was the package. She didn't know about the money laundering. She didn't know about any of the, the law enforcement, she didn't know about anything else because I was basically told from the onset that the charges would be worse for me if I revealed this case, because this is a very long-standing case, and it's very sensitive, and that there were a lot of people involved and if somehow I was able to divulge any of this information, then it would go badly, then there would be other charges. So...

[00:08:55] Bob: And they now claim to have some very conspicuous evidence of his involvement.

[00:09:00] Mike: And they showed me a, he showed me a picture of some, some bank cards, and he told me that there was some of the people that, some of the higher ups that were arrested. There was some kind of a journal that has my name in it implicating me, and that they have evidence that I opened up a bank account and had a debit card in my name and that, that my name was, that debit card was being used to launder money. So he was very aggressive in telling me that, that they're going to look, they're looking into this, so...

[00:09:30] Bob: And now that he is under suspicion, he's going to have to check in regularly with the agent, every night.

[00:09:38] Mike: I'd have to go down to the basement, so my wife didn't hear the conversations, and talk to him.

[00:09:44] Bob: And then, within a week, things get much worse.

[00:09:48] Mike: I tried to clear it, and then maybe the third or fourth call, he told me that I was going to be arrested. And they showed me what looked to be an official arrest warrant with a financial freeze requirements that would freeze all my assets, and it, it looked official. It's signed by a judge. It's signed by Carl Blanche at the Justice Department. It's signed by the federal agent. And then he had to read a, had, had to have me listen to him read the statement of the particulars and, obviously, I was very upset and very scared that I was going to be arrested.

[00:10:29] Bob: Mike is scared, and Cathy, well all she knows is Mike keeps disappearing into the basement.

[00:10:36] Bob: What are you thinking while that's happening?

[00:10:38] Cathy: I am scared to death. I have no idea what's going on. I know it's not good, and I know it has something to do with the law, but I'm very confused.

[00:10:48] Bob: Now that there's an arrest warrant, they tell Mike they have to keep him under constant supervision.

[00:10:54] Mike: One of the things that I had to do during this whole process was to have an app put on my phone that could listen to my conversation.

[00:11:02] Bob: Oh my God.

[00:11:03] Mike: So I had to keep this app running all the time, so they made sure I wasn't discussing this with anyone, I wasn't talking about it with anyone. And so I couldn't discuss it with my wife, I couldn't talk about it. And everywhere I went I had to have my phone, and you could see that the app was active, and if it went off, they would call me back and say, you had to put it back on. So...

[00:11:25] Bob: The surveillance weighs on Mike, as does the secrecy. Eventually, he's very worried he might just get arrested one day and Cathy won't have any idea what's going on. So he becomes resourceful.

[00:11:39] Mike: So we started passing notes back and forth to each other, on what she should, because I was concerned about the asset freezing also. So we were passing notes back and forth on potentially how she can secure money and how she could, what she has to do. And meanwhile, I'm talking to this FBI agent and I'm saying, "Listen, I, what, how do I, I'm not just going to, you're just going to show up on my door and my wife's not going to know anything about this?" and just, "You can't tell anyone. Then it's going to be worse. The charges will be increased because this is a sensitive investigation," and blah-blah-blah.

[00:12:09] Bob: But you really believed they could hear you, so you were passing notes like you were in 1st grade or something.

[00:12:16] Mike: Oh yeah, absolutely. And at one point Cathy asked me, do you think you're going to be arrested? And writing it down, not talking, not asking me. She wrote it down and I said, “Very. It’s possible.”

[00:12:27] Bob: Cathy, I just want to get a couple of thoughts from you. You were already scared, and then at one point Mike writes on a piece of paper, "It's possible I'll be arrested." What did you think then?

[00:12:36] Cathy: I was terrified. I just wanted to do anything that would keep him safe and not be arrested.

[00:12:42] Bob: And the two of them start making plans for the worst. That includes this terrible moment.

[00:12:50] Cathy: He gave me his wedding rings, 'cause he thought he wasn't, he might be arrested, so he just wanted me to have his rings.

[00:12:56] Bob: That's how panicky, how desperate Cathy and Mike feel. But right at that horrible moment, a reason for hope arrives in one of their nightly calls. The FBI agent...

[00:13:09] Mike: He basically told me that there was something that they could do to mitigate me being arrested, and it was something that they called a bail pending trial application. And I said, "Well okay, so that, what do I have to do?" He said, "Well, let me try to talk to this prosecutor again on your behalf."

[00:13:28] Bob: A bail pending trial application? Mike doesn't know what that is or what it might entail, but he goes to bed that night thinking just maybe there's a way out of getting arrested.

[00:13:41] Mike: So the next night, he gets on the phone again with the prosecutor and he's saying, "Well I really think we need to give him consideration for doing this and blah-blah-blah. And the prosecutor, he reluctantly agrees and said, "Okay, we're going to allow to have this accommodation where we'll request a, a bail in place of arrest." So at that point I was, you feel relieved, right?

[00:14:06] Bob: Sure, sure, yeah.

[00:14:09] Mike: He said, "Well I have to get it approved by the Justice Department Prosecutor."

[00:14:14] Bob: But one day later, the roller coaster swings the other direction.

[00:14:18] Mike: I had another call at night, and the prosecutor got on the phone and the FBI guy said, "Well, I'm putting my reputation at risk and I'm putting my career at risk by asking for this, and why should you be given the opportunity to have this consideration when all the other victims haven't? We'd have to put you at the top of the list so that we can investigate to see if this is factual." And the prosecutor got on and said, "No, I don't want, this person's guilty and I don't want to hear it." And he hung up.

[00:14:44] Bob: Wow.

[00:14:46] Mike: And I... what do you do? So the agent said to me, "Listen, let me see if I can talk to him again, and I'll see if I can plead the case on your behalf. I believe now that you're innocent, and I'll talk to the prosecutor again and we'll see if we can work something out."

[00:15:04] Bob: Now worried his last chance to avoid jail has come and gone, Mike is willing to do almost anything to keep that door open. And at this point, the agent demands even more intrusive surveillance.

[00:15:18] Mike: Every two hours I had to check in with him, and I had to send him a picture of myself, and make an active claim that I was upholding the, the privacy agreement and they asked me to send along also any other emails or spam emails that I was getting so that it would justify the fact that I do get these things and so I was sending these pictures of me every two hours to this FBI agent, and so this went on. I don't know, this may have gone on for a week or so.

[00:15:45] Bob: But every two hours? As soon as you wake up in the morning, right before you go to bed at night.

[00:15:49] Mike: Every two hours. Yeah.

[00:15:50] Bob: It sounds exhausting.

[00:15:52] Mike: It's exhausting, and it's traumatic because you can't get away from it. You have to, you, you're stuck with it every day, many times a day, and you just, it's there.

[00:16:03] Bob: And then finally, one night they offer him the bail arrangement.

[00:16:08] Mike: They have this bail document, also very official looking with the logos and the seals and the Justice Department and the signatures and he has to read it out loud to me. He turns on his recording device so he can, he reads the whole thing and so I understand what it is, and so forth.

[00:16:27] Bob: What a relief. And since the prosecutor offers him this deal, Mike decides to act in good faith and...

[00:16:34] Mike: And when that gets done, I, I tell him, I figured let me be honest with him. Let me tell him that I spoke to my wife and told her that I thought I was going to be arrested. And he went (bleep). I'm sorry, my language. "That you broke confidence, and now I have to go back to the prosecutor and tell him, and we have to see if he's going to allow us to move forward with this because you broke confidence." And I thought it would be a good thing me telling him that I was being upfront with them, that, so then he hung up.

[00:17:03] Bob: Once again, they hang up on Mike and leave him hanging, but one night later...

[00:17:09] Mike: He said, "Okay, I believe you," and so forth. "I'll move forward with this bail request, and I have to clear it with the Vietnamese authorities," 'cause this was, this, all the people who were victims were Vietnamese apparently. I, he actually had me on hold on the, on the call for 15, 20 minutes because he was going to check it out with the Vietnamese authority. And when he came back on he said, "Okay, it's been approved," and that we'll move forward with the, the bail.

[00:17:40] Bob: Finally they can move forward with the bail, and Mike can stay out of jail.

[00:17:45] Bob: What was the procedure for that?

[00:17:49] Mike: Well I, they had to give me a wire transfer account, and he told me that we have to set up a special account for you because we can't have it a public account. We can't do it with the Justice Department because this is all confidential and no one can have the idea that you're cooperating with the Justice Department. And then they told me, "We have to set up this account and it's going to take a while for us to set this account up, and we'll be in touch, but meanwhile, keep your, two-hour reports coming."

[00:18:18] Bob: And once that special wire account is set up...

[00:18:23] Bob: How much money did they want?

[00:18:24] Mike: 110.

[00:18:26] Bob: $110,000. Wow.

[00:18:28] Mike: Right, initially.

[00:18:29] Bob: Yeah. But did you have that kind of money lying around? Did you have to cash something out?

[00:18:34] Mike: Yeah, I had to cash out some of my 401k.

[00:18:37] Bob: So he sends the $110,000, thinking he can put all this behind him, they tell him he'll get his bail money back once he's exonerated. But that's not the end of it. He still has to keep sending pictures, and he still has to keep getting on these nightly calls.

[00:18:54] Mike: Yeah. So I don't know, at some point like maybe a week or two, maybe a little longer before that, I had a call with them, and they tell me, "Well, you understand that this kind of offense, the bail is a quarter, 25% of the amount and the amount that was scammed was like $8 million, so the Vietnamese authorities are not happy with the 110,000, and they're going to cancel this bail agreement, but in order for us to move forward, they want another 140,000."

[00:19:24] Bob: They want another $140,000. It's a crushing request, but thanks in part to the move, it's not impossible.

[00:19:36] Mike: We were closing on our house, and we were making a nice profit, and it came out of that. And I told him, "Listen, we're closing on a house. We need to wait until I have those finances." And "Oh, okay, that's fine. We'll wait."

[00:19:49] Bob: Meanwhile, waiting for the house sale to close, they make their move to Florida. Remember, throughout all this, Mike and Cathy are hard at work on all the transition things. They're supposed to be beginning their new life of retirement fun and relaxation.

[00:20:04] Mike: Meanwhile, we go down to Florida, we pack our bags up and we take the auto train down to Florida and we planned on having a really nice time going to Disney World because the auto train ends up near Orlando. And we were going to spend a couple days in Disney World, and we were going to come back to where we were settling eventually in, on the auto train. The whole time on the auto train I had to log in and sign in with these people again. And while I was in Disney World, I had to excuse myself and make the confidentiality agreement and so...

[00:20:36] Bob: That sounds so tragic to me that there you are at Disney World sneaking off to have these phone calls. God. Cathy, I want to go back in time just a little bit with you. What was it like being on that auto train while all these phone calls or video calls are happening?

[00:20:50] Cathy: I just felt like this should be the happiest time of our life and something was just not sitting right. This whole situation was just like taking away from the happiness.

[00:20:59] Bob: And it literally, you're at the happiest place on earth, right? And this is happening.

[00:21:03] Mike: Yeah. So we, we moved down here, and obviously, all of the plans and all the, the happy times we were envisioning had been clouded with all of this uh horrible, potentially, difficult situation.

[00:21:17] Bob: And not long after they arrive in Florida, the house sale clears.

[00:21:22] Mike: So down here, every day I had to, I went down in the mornings to have a morning conversation with this prosecutor. And then at one point he apologized to me that he was so rude, and that when we had the first call and that he believes me. And he thinks that he's, in all his years, he believes that I'm innocent, and they're going to be, he's got my back, and don't worry. We'll take care of this, and let, let us know when the wire transfer goes through and it's cleared.

[00:21:49] Bob: So the day the wire clears, Mike logs into his nightly meeting with the agent expecting to share the good news. But he's alone. The agent is not there.

[00:22:00] Bob: Oh man, and you had no other way to get in touch, you didn't have a phone number or something you tried to call?

[00:22:04] Mike: No. No, no. So the next day I tried again, and at that point I realized that was the deal. And that was it. Then, then he went dark; I never heard from him again.

[00:22:18] Bob: God, wow. So what's your thought process when he disappears?

[00:22:25] Mike: That I'd been scammed out of a quarter million dollars.

[00:22:29] Bob: Mike realizes all of it; the prosecutor, the bail, the illegal delivery to Vietnam; it was all a lie. A quarter of a million dollars was stolen from him.

[00:22:41] Bob: And do you remember what it was like to tell Cathy that you thought this was a scam?

[00:22:46] Mike: It was difficult.

[00:22:47] Bob: Well what did you say?

[00:22:49] Mike: I told her that I believed it was a scam. And she kept asking me who would do this?

[00:22:55] Cathy: I think I was in the bedroom, and he had gone downstairs and nobody was answering quite a few times, and it just like a light bulb went off on both of us that we were being scammed.

[00:23:08] Mike: I was upset and having to tell her that was extremely upsetting, because all along I was telling her, oh, we'll get the money back, don't worry. We're going to get the money back.

[00:23:17] Bob: Mike goes to the police. He ultimately files a report with police in New Jersey where all this started, but they tell him there's little hope of getting his stolen money back. Meanwhile, Mike's brother persuades him that he should speak out about everything that's happened.

[00:23:32] Mike: So I reached out to the Miami Herald, and I didn't think anything of it, and they wrote back to me and said, yeah, we'd like to interview you. We gave, we sat down with them, and they published the story.

[00:23:44] Bob: Mike hopes that maybe sharing his story might help someone else avoid becoming a victim. And that effort pays immediate dividends.

[00:23:54] Mike: And after I did the article with the Herald, the reporter got back to me and said that there was another individual who was scammed in exactly the same way, and he was in the process of still being scammed by them when he read the article. And he realized after reading the article that, you know what, I'm being scammed too. And I like to think I helped save him from being further victimized, and he told me that. And we've been con--, conversing a couple times since, 'cause I guess we had something in common. But he was grateful and he was scammed for more money than I was, initially, and they were in the process of trying to get more out of him.

[00:24:33] Bob: You might have saved this person hundreds of thousands of dollars, right?

[00:24:36] Mike: I, well according to him, yes.

[00:24:39] Bob: Well this is obviously an awful thing, but boy, that is, that's an amazing little green chute for this terrible story, right?

[00:24:45] Mike: Yeah, and again, it's why I agreed to do this because I feel like maybe I'm somehow helping, you know, others.

[00:24:52] Bob: Mike says being the victim of this terrible crime has really changed him. He told me it's turned him into a different person.

[00:25:01] Bob: Can you explain that?

[00:25:03] Mike: I don't know. I had a computer company when I was younger. I still am pretty familiar with technology, and I like to think that I'm a smart person and I can see through these things, but now you become jaded. You don't trust anybody, you don’t trust anything. You don't know what's a scam, what's not a scam. Everything you look at sideways now and it's, you look at the world differently. And it's not that I was trusting of the world before, but the fact that I thought I was somewhat knowledgeable about these things, that, but now I think that we're all victim potentially to this as, as AI becomes more significant. I think these scams become more well financed. Certainly this was a well-financed operation. I feel concern for the public at large that it's going to be more and more difficult to defend against these things. At some point during the early conversations, I asked them, "Should I get an attorney?" And they said, "No, no, this is a very sensitive case. If there's an issue, we're going to assign an attorney for you." So they lock you up. Psychologically they lock you up.

[00:26:10] Bob: They lock you up, emotionally. And with those app and image requirements, they lock you up digitally too. Cathy says the crime also changed her.

[00:26:20] Cathy: Yeah, I have a real problem answering my phone. I'm kind of leery of all calls I don't know, and emails that I just don't identify anymore.

[00:26:32] Bob: Well, first of all, I'm glad. You should not answer the phone at this point unless it's someone that you know.

[00:26:36] Cathy: Yeah, I'm just, I'm much more kind of anxious of things that I don't know are real, and questioning and requestioning every, every conversation.

[00:26:48] Bob: God. The insecurity that comes with these crimes is terrible. It's much worse than the money, right, you don't know what, you can't believe anything. That's terrible. God. Is there anything that you want, Cathy, to make sure that people hear from your story that they take away from it?

[00:27:05] Cathy: Just really if something doesn't look right, just keep questioning it until it makes sense to you. Ask 100 questions.

[00:27:13] Bob: I like that, yeah, ask 100 questions, sure, and keep questioning it until it makes sense. Mike, what about you? What do you really want people to take away from your story?

[00:27:21] Mike: That's we're all subject to this kind of scam and they're becoming more sophisticated; they're becoming more well-financed. People are entering these things with significant resources, and as vigilant as you think you can be, it's not enough.

[00:27:41] Bob: As vigilant as you think you can be, it's not enough. I'm sorry that's the message. All this burden shouldn't fall so heavily on consumers, but that is the reality today unfortunately. To talk a little bit more about that reality, and some things we can change, we have Debbie Deem back on the show today. She's a friend of The Perfect Scam. She's a retired FBI agent and now a full-time victim's advocate. She says crimes that involve government impersonation are exploding, and indeed, the FCC just issued a warning about them in August.

[00:28:14] Debbie Deem: These digital arrests or government impostor scams are so successful now because of course they're using AI and they're using the ability to manufacture these kinds of outfits, or even purchase them, to make them look real. They're working through these fake kind of calls saying you committed this serious crimes, they've got these claims. Oftentimes there's pictures of that agent with the flag in the background or the seal, all these kinds of things that kind of stress that this is an authority speaking to you. And especially if you're an older adult, we're kind of trained to respect that authority and to, our, our brain kind of short circuits and says, okay, that's really the FBI, or in this case, Homeland Security calling me, I, I need to be respectful of this and take this call.

[00:28:56] Bob: And the FBI jackets, they're for sale in places, right?

[00:28:59] Debbie Deem: Yes, they are. It's so easy now. I've had so many cases where people are impersonating even the FBI Director, they're impersonating signatures. Any FBI agent or other federal agent, or even local law enforcement, if their name is out there in, in social media or being used in news release stories, you can assume that those are names that are going to be available to these fraud predators to take and make use of and making their false claims and these false calls that they make.

[00:29:27] Bob: So the criminal says, "My name is Bob Sullivan, google me. You'll see I'm a podcast host," right? And that's enough evidence sometimes to persuade people, right?

[00:29:34] Debbie Deem: It is.

[00:29:34] Bob: and let's face it, it's scary to hear from the government, right?

[00:29:38] Debbie Deem: It's very scary to hear from the government. And you want to comply. If you're like most of us, you want to comply and in these kind of cases they want to prove their innocence. He said I, I've never been to, to Washington DC, where you say this is happening. I have no links to cartels. I'm not involved with shipping products from Vietnam. So you want to comply, you want to show that you're innocent by working with law enforcement. And these things are usually wrapped up if you're watching TV shows within an hour, so you think oh, there's not going to be any issue here. I'm going to work with them, and everything will be alright. All of these kinds of things led these people to believe; it's almost like this emotional hijacking. They bypass our logical thinking and think, oh my gosh, this is an emergency. I'm in trouble. I've got to prove my innocence, and that's what this, this poor family was involved in.

[00:30:26] Bob: And just, I think one moment that really shows how deeply, emotionally involved he was in the situation and his wife as well, that at one point he had to scribble on a piece of paper and say, "I, I believe I'm going to be arrested." And then he hands his wife his wedding rings just in case he has no time to do that later. That was a crushing moment for me.

[00:30:44] Debbie Deem: That was such a sad moment. It must have been very terrifying for both of them.

[00:30:50] Bob: And the criminals kept it terrifying by forcing Mike to do a video call every night, and even to send images of himself every two hours. Essentially, forcing him to live under what can feel like house arrest, or digital confinement. Debbie is currently working with another victim suffering through a similar crime.

[00:31:09] Debbie Deem: The digital confinement is just, I think the, the new part of that, or what makes that name, the digital, that's what's happening, but here he had to, I think, send pictures of himself every two hours. Their stories and the person I'm dealing with, that person had access to them. She was supposed to keep her cellphone open to that person being able to see her at any time that they wanted to, to watch what she was doing. And of course, that's also a way of kind of keeping them under a digital kind of coercion, or a control. You can watch and make sure that they're not getting in touch with anyone else. So, again, it's all means to cut you off from communication with the outside world where you can double-check this to see what's really going on and then keep that fear going.

[00:31:53] Bob: The fear's just part of the technique. After they've created fear, they also create relief. Oh, just pay this bail.

[00:32:02] Debbie Deem: That whole fear and relief where to keep them in that state of fear, but also, well, I'm going to try to work with you, and maybe we can, instead of having the police come and knock through the door, we're going to do this whole thing virtually. So all these kind of threats, and then relief. Fear and relief kind of thing that they kept him going with that digital confinement; secrecy and isolation that they do on these crimes. So again, by keeping that person isolated and away from everyone and demanding that secrecy, they're better able to control them, and that, again that digital coercion that they do leading to that digital confinement, it's all means to keep people under their spell, keep people under their control, allow the coercion that they're doing and that manipulation all in order to get that money. This is all about getting as much of their life savings as they can get.

[00:32:49] Bob: So Debbie speaks with victims so often, I asked her what strikes her most during these conversations.

[00:32:55] Debbie Deem: I think their biggest frustration is the lack of a system response. The people, and in this case I can talk about Mike. How did his investment advisor allow those, that amount of money to go out and not question him? Where's the role of the banks? Where is the role of law enforcement? Did law enforcement respond to this when it first happened? I think the lack of system response is something that so many of my victims had no idea that this was the kind of systems that they would run into and these kind of roadblocks happening to them, after this crime. I think they assumed based on their experiences or what they've read; if they were a victim of a violent crime, these kinds of things would be investigated. There would be help. There would have been more interventions earlier. That's what people would most want people to know if they want to be heard, they want to have, they want to be treated like any other victim of a crime.

[00:33:48] Bob: So you really have a, an intimate view on what it's like to be a crime victim, and I think the deep understanding of how these things occur, which is part of the obstacle, right? There are so many people, the way their initial reactions to these crimes is how could this happen, right? But why is that such a detriment to solving the crimes?

[00:34:07] Debbie Deem: I think it's such a detriment because number one, I think we have this dichotomy on how we treat victims of violent crimes vs. financial crimes. And the whole issue of victim blaming and shaming that you've covered so well on your podcast, I think that's one of them. And the fact is that so few people get their cases investigated, so few people get any recovery. These are very much invisible victims to a great extent. And while that's changing, I think that's often something that we have to deal with in this world.

[00:34:38] Bob: So somebody works their whole life, they get whatever amount of money they saved, and then it's stolen from them in one of these scams. And what they hear principally is, there's nothing we can do, right?

[00:34:49] Debbie Deem: There's nothing we can do. It's your fault. You shouldn't have been so gullible. We're hearing less of that, but we still hear it. You shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't have; you shouldn't have taken that phone call. You should have known better. All those kinds of things are still what we say to people, and we would never say that to someone that's a victim of a violent crime. And I think changing our language on that and changing our responses so that the police do make an arrest, the pol--, or make, do make a report. They do get help in filling out an IC3 report. But why should a victim of a financial crime have to fill out their own IC3 report? That should be done by the systems that they're involved with. We don't ask a rape victim to file a report with 1-800-RAPE and 1-800 Sexual Assault. Why do we ask that, or demand that of a financial crime victim even when we're telling them, well this is just a library of complaints, and you probably aren't going to be hearing from anyone anyways. One of the reasons they should report. But again, I think what most victims would feel is just the lack of response that they get in having to go through this alone, whether it's family members of those victimized, I think is probably the number one thing they would say to me or to someone if they had this opportunity to speak to you.

[00:36:00] Bob: Obviously, we should help victims more because well they're victims who deserve our support. But there's another reason.

[00:36:07] Debbie Deem: This is a national security issue, and you have probably better minds than mine on this, but we know that this is a generation of wealth amount that is being stolen from not just Americans, but from people all around the world by transnational gangs, whether they're organized crime gangs, whether they're just the yahoo boys in Africa doing what they do, or the Jamaican lottery scammers, whatever kind of group oftentimes with connections here in the United States. We know that this kind of fraud is happening more and more, and that people around the world are being victimized. Again, I believe and others are saying that this is the number one crime happening to people around the world, and the fact that we're not getting good response just because someone might be international vs. here locally, is not an excuse not to pay attention to these crimes and to support the victims and have programs that can do that as well.

[00:37:00] Bob: So what are the big red flags to look for when encountering a government impersonation scam, or digital arrest scam?

[00:37:07] Debbie Deem: I think there's several. Number one, it's going to be, the big call saying that you committed a serious crime, or that there's a warrant out for your arrest, those kinds of things. There's going to be these false claims that you've committed these things. They're often going to use a spoofed caller ID that may show up on the phone as being FBI or HSI or whatever kind of police department that they're using there. They're going to have that forged legal paperwork and there's going to be that kind of fear. They're going to put that fear into you, that threat of arrest, so that the person believes that this is really true, and then they're going to move more into that relief, that fear of relief loop where they're working on their behalf and rather than having to go to Washington, they're going to arrange for you to be able to do this all online. Instead of having to get arrested, we're going to arrange for this bail program. So those kinds of things that kind of alternating between the threats to that calmer tone offering to help with an alternative solution that makes people more compliant, I think, oftentimes. And then, of course that digital confinement and secrecy, trying to keep them isolated. They want to keep them from getting any kind of help or checking with that second opinion. They want to cut off your communication with that outside world until they get as much of your money as they can get. And then there's going to be that demand for money, and it's not going to be a demand for money, it's going to be that way that you can make that payment, make that bail money, and of course you're going to get that bail money returned and this is all going to go away. And of course, the victims usually will comply with that thinking that this will make it all go away, and of course it ends up with instead all of their money being taken.

[00:38:45] Bob: And what are the best ways for people to protect themselves?

[00:38:49] Debbie Deem: Oh yes, this is my favorite part of this, and this is what I do when I go and speak with my victims. And first, if I'm doing any kind of trainings or talking individually with a, a victim or their family member, I really push my number one fraud prevention tool is never answer a call unless they're in your contacts. Let that call go to voicemail. You then will have time to research that call. Don't take that call's phone number if it is left as a voicemail; you want to research it and go to the original source of something whether that's your bank statement, whether that's a credit card company on the back of your credit card. Perhaps you want to contact your local police or visit and play that message for them to listen to and tell you whether it's real or not. We know that most fraud predators will not leave a message as well. And don't trust caller ID even if it says FBI, your bank, Homeland Security, or something else. So that's my first one is don't answer that call. If you do take a call like that, first of all, immediately hang up, and then never share your personal details or transfer the money. And if you are someone witnessing that, physically intervene. Disconnect the internet if you can. If someone is victimized, first thing, disconnect that internet, then go to your bank and let them know. Contact your broker if the retirement accounts were compromised. Get screenshots or download as much of that evidence as you can because they may be able to leave text messages or through WhatsApp and other things, they may be able to destroy that document. Preserve it so that you have that later if needed for all your tax issues, banking issues, any kind of civil suit you might want and preserving it also for law enforcement. The other thing that oftentimes people don't mention is is get your computer cleaned as soon as you can. Don't use it to file any online reports. Don't use it to talk to your bank, don't, or access your bank account. Don't do any of that until you've made sure, hopefully with a local company, that your computer has been cleaned. Because what happened in this case to Mike and Cathy, is they did, the scammers did have them install a remote access app that made all those kinds of accounts available to them, and they could see exactly what was on there, and again, that was also used for their digital surveillance. So they want to make sure that their computer is cleaned. And then you want to file that IC3 complaint and get to the police as quickly as you can. For some people that might be really difficult for them to do, so I'm always encouraging people to if that's difficult, contact the AARP Fraud Watch Network or the National Elder Fraud Hotline. They can help in filing complaints and give suggestions such as what I'm doing now on what to do to protect yourself better. Also secure their credentials. Change their passwords. Maybe change their emails that they use for banking kinds of situations and ensure they've installed two-factor authentication. Again I mentioned Adult Protective Services. If your age, and again each state is different, in our state of California, my local Adult Protective Services can get involved in any case if a victim is age 60 or over, or someone with some kind of a disability ages 19, I guess, or 18 through 64. So those might be additional places to go for help. You also want to tell people to freeze their credit with the credit reporting companies. A good place I also recommend for these is, which was created by a former federal prosecutor, frozen... www.frozenpii.com. Or you can go to the Identity Theft Resource Center, or the Federal Trade Commission. All three of those sites have really good information on how to freeze credits with the three major reporting companies: Equifax, Experian, Transunion, but as well as some other ones. Be aware also, I would, and again, this is important for Mike and Cathy; there is going to be tax consequences. And looking into one of the support groups that are out there including AARP's. They have a wonderful support program for those victimized. And there's also one for family members, and one that I understand through Liz that they have just started for spouses specifically. So there would be some specific help for Cathy. These are free. They're for all ages, and you don't need to be an AARP member to join it. Just a couple more things, and that is I would also consider consulting with a civil attorney. I think in this case there is some potential kind of liabilities perhaps with the broker, and I'm not sure, but just talking to someone. We're thankful now that there is something called the Scam Justice Legal Clinic that gives free one-hour consultations with victims. I, I'm aware that AARP's Fraud Watch Network will have access on how to reach that. There's a National Association of Consumer Advocates where you can find an attorney that might be willing to work with people civilly if they don't know of any other ways to find an attorney to look into that. We know that FINRA has a rule actually with brokers where they are supposed to be getting trusted contacts information so that someone can be notified if you start taking out patterns of these huge amounts of money quickly with no apparent reason. And that's why I say banks should also be implementing this trusted contact so that someone could have been notified that Mike was involved in this. So I recommend people also do that. Get that trusted contact in with both banking as well as your financial accounts with banks, but also to consider that civil attorney. And just the final thing, be aware: No law enforcement agency is ever going to call you to have this kind of a discussion or threaten you or there's no such thing as digital arrests. That any, anytime you would be contacted by law enforcement in this way, it would, they would come to your door knocking and probably not in a threatening way unless you had some notice or were really involved in some bad things. Anybody that's asking you to pay bail or move your money to protect it, just recognize that's a sign of a criminal.

[00:44:38] Bob: Debbie mentioned AARP's Fraud Watch Network. You can call them for free at 877-908-3360 Monday through Friday from 8 am to 8 pm Eastern Time. You can also find out about support groups at that phone number. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:45:09] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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