Bonus: Scam Survivors Use Experience to Help Others

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[00:00:01] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam and to this special bonus episode. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:10] Bob: The phone rings and it's a stranger who has just discovered that they're the victim of a years' long romance scam, or a cryptocurrency scam or a lottery scam, or a sweepstakes scam. What's it like to be the volunteer on the other end of that phone line? The victim might have just realized that their entire life savings has been stolen and they've been lied to for months or even years and it's your job to bring this stranger to a place of hope again. What is that like? Well today we have a special treat for you. I'm sure you've heard me say it again and again, AARP has a wonderful resource called The Fraud Watch Network and a Helpline that's available 5 days a week at 877-908-3360. Today we're going to hear from two of the 150 volunteers who answer calls on that Helpline, mainly so we can understand the amazing work that they do, but also so perhaps we can convince someone out there who's hurting right now that they can call in and a well-trained counselor will offer nonjudgmental help, advice, and an empathetic ear. Why do I know the volunteers are empathetic? Well, most end up on the Helpline because they were once victims themselves and called in. That is how Dee Johnston ended up as a volunteer.

[00:01:36] Dee Johnston: Okay, basically mine was a 6-year romance scam. Very involved, very intense.

[00:01:43] Bob: Dee Johnston isn't her real name.

[00:01:46] Dee Johnston: Got started slowly, built up to asking for money, obviously. Sent, spent a lot of money, a lot of money. I depleted my savings, IRA, everything that I had. We were down to; I was down to losing my house before I realized that things just were not good. And it was very sad, very, I can't say eye-opening because it was very, it was devastating. It affected me, not just emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually. I have some health...

[00:02:22] Bob: And how did you hear about the Helpline?

[00:02:24] Dee Johnston: The Helpline, my sister actually reached out to me and found the Helpline because I was just devastated. I was in a flight or fight mode. And she came to me, said call this number, I called and got onto the Helpline. They directed me to groups that I could pick one any day of the week and that's what I did, and after that I was there for a couple of years, still joined from time to time, and then it did come out that AARP was asking for volunteers, and I said, perfect. This is great. This is what I want to do.

[00:03:05] Bob: This is great, this is what I want to do. After a 6-year fabricated relationship that ended in heartbreak and financial ruin, Dee found solace in helping others. That's what happened to Mike Allred too.

[00:03:21] Mike Allred: A few years ago, probably about three years ago, I was scammed on a gift card scam which was somewhat sophisticated at the time. Didn't lose a huge amount of money, but it upset me emotionally more than anything else. I went through the shame-type culture that you have as a victim of why me, how could I be so stupid, etc., and I think it was maybe within that year, three, four, or five months later I saw in the AARP Bulletin an article on scams and fraud, and then a sidebar asking for volunteers, the need for volunteers. And because of my experience, I thought hey, this would be a good way to give back. I can share my experience and I can be trained and be able to give some resources that might help others.

[00:04:07] Bob: I've got to say, both of you have amazing radio voices. I could listen to the two of you all day long.

[00:04:13] Bob: Volunteers like Dee and Mike have to go through extensive training because they meet people when they are in very vulnerable situations.

[00:04:23] Bob: Do you remember a call early on that really touched you?

[00:04:27] Dee Johnston: Yes, I do. An individual, 72 years old, cried as soon as I contacted her. She was looking forward to someone calling her. She had given all her money in the gift cards, and she just didn't know what she was going to do. She knew, she just, she was beside herself thinking that these people were coming after her because she had no more money, and no more, no more money to get anymore gift cards, and they were angry with her now. And she had no friends, no family. She did have neighbors that looked out for her. She basically lived with her blinds closed and wouldn't answer her door. So the police would show up some time to check on her because her neighbors didn't see any activity. So we had a very long talk and I hopefully gave her a lot of hope in saying that you need, you need to get out. Do not let these individuals take over your life like this. Make time, make friends with your neighbors, and let them help you. There's a lot of language that you have to use with these people. It took about, I would say 45 minutes to get her to stop crying.

[00:05:48] Bob: Oh, God.

[00:05:49] Dee Johnston: And she thanked me. I think it, my heart went out because I think basically what it was is she was scared to death, didn't understand her next move or who to report anything to. And she wanted someone to talk to about it, and that understood. So at that time it couldn't be her neighbor. It was very difficult for me as well. But yet at the same time, very rewarding because at the end she was very calm, she was very thankful and very appreciative.

[00:06:33] Bob: So you brought her from 45 minutes of crying to, to a calm place at least. What a gift, Dee. Thank you so much for doing that.

[00:06:40] Dee Johnston: It's the least I can, it just naturally you just want to do that. If you were there you just want to hug them and say, look, this is going to be okay. It's not your fault. These people are criminals. This is their job.

[00:06:58] Bob: We've discussed this on The Perfect Scam before. Some victims are so traumatized, they consider self-harm, and now is a good time to say that if you or anyone you know is at risk, you can dial or text 988 at any time for immediate professional and caring help. AARP volunteers are trained to direct people to such professional resources if they sense a victim is in immediate danger.

[00:07:24\] Dee Johnston: It's like people also committing, wanting to commit suicide. They, when this is all over and they think they can't go through life anymore with their new life, with having to readjust things. And I just say, please, the individual or individuals, the criminals that did this to you have no feeling. They could care less whether you live or die, but your friends, family, relative, whatever, don't let them, they've already won. Don't let them win your life. Don't do that. Don't do that. It's not worth it.

[00:08:09] Bob: After the immediate emotional trauma of a scam, there are long-term impacts too. AARP's Helpline also helps with that.

[00:08:19] Bob: What was the first, first call that really touched you?

[00:08:22] Mike Allred: It's a little hard to remember because I've doing this now for about two years, but something that kind of stands out for me often is an individual who has lost a lot of money through a crypto fraud, and as Dee was indicating, when someone loses their entire savings, and they're a senior, that stands out for me and really touches my heart because financially I understand how it's a struggle once you retire and what you're living on, whether it's investments or Social Security or a combination, and then you lose a large chunk of that money to something as nefarious as a crypto scam. And I remember one gentleman in, I believe it was in Texas or Arizona, who lost over $500,000, close to $600,000. And it was basically, he was in his late 60s and he was left just, at that point, with no ability to recover that amount of money, so he had to live just on his Social Security check. I felt so bad for him because honestly, here he is for the next 10, 20 years of his life not having nearly the amount of money and most of it, I empathize with the fact being somewhat of that same age, that he's lost his dreams. In other words he can't visit his grandchildren, he can't go on some cruise, he can't possibly give some money to one of his children to help with college expenses or whatever because all of that's gone. So it's not just the financial loss, but I remember just feeling his pain that he was going to have to live now a very different life than what he had envisioned and what he had prepared for, because he had done nothing wrong. He had put all this money into 401Ks, put it over into different investment vehicles, and now it was all gone. So his whole life was changed. And it's such a hard thing anyways aging out as you get older, and then to lose that particular stability in your life. And again, I felt for him because the dreams that he had; he talked about the fact that he had grandkids all over the United States and he wouldn't be able to visit them, wouldn't be able to see them any longer, or very infrequently.

[00:10:40] Bob: It's just there's few things that are sadder than that, right?

[00:10:43] Mike Allred: Yeah.

[00:10:44] Bob: Those are, that's what you're supposed to be enjoying at that part of life. What does your training or your, just your internal guidance, what does it tell you to do or say at a time like that?

[00:10:53] Mike Allred: I think one of the first things is you need to make sure you don't re-shame them. You need to use the correct language and we're trained on that as volunteers, that you are a victim of a crime, for example, that this was really not your fault. We all make mistakes. Using that kind of language I think is really critical, and then I think the most important thing is what Dee said is to really listen empathetically to them to hear their story, to allow them to talk. They just basically need to connect with someone who understands them who will accept them, and possibly who can provide some type of, and I think this is really important, you might not be able to get your money back and you probably won't, but there are some proactive things you can do, and the more proactive you are in your life going forward, the happier you're going to be and you'll be able to heal more quickly and recover yourself. Because I think the most important thing is you've lost yourself at some point. It's not just that you lost your money, you've lost your confidence, you've lost your ego, and you've got to go through a process and sometimes it's a very slow process of trying to recover those things that are lost. So I think that in my personal experience and training, those are the kind of things I want to do when I connect with somebody.

[00:12:15] Bob: Sure, it's hard work volunteering on the Helpline, but there are plenty of rewarding moments too.

[00:12:21] Mike Allred: Yeah, recently I had a lady who, again, was really distraught. It was basically where they'd taken over her computer and infected her computer and then got access to some of her financial information, and she didn't know where to go with that, and she was so thankful after the 15 or 20 minutes of us conversing, by just giving her some resources that you know do this with your computer and if you can't do it today, try to do it tomorrow. Make sure your computer's cleaned off, and then also these are some things you can do to report what's happened, and specifically, this is how you can recover your identity because it looks like they have access to your financial information including your Social Security number. Call here, access this website. Now remember, after the, the 15 or 20 minutes of, for being a bit hysterical or really concerned and anxious at the beginning of the call to the point where she said, "Hey, thank you, I feel like I've got some resources and some tools in hand that I can go forward and I plan this afternoon, immediately, to go to my bank, close out my bank accounts. I'm going to put a credit freeze on so no one can open up a new credit card or a loan in my name. I'm also going to do some things like going to identitytheft.gov and go through the step-by-step process of what I need to do to recover my own identity." So I think the bottom line I felt my reward was that I had given her some tools so that she could actually be proactive again and do something starting that day to recover, maybe not the money that she had lost, but at least in a sense to recover her dignity.

[00:14:06] Bob: And sometimes things just aren't as bad as they seem to a caller.

[00:14:10] Bob: Dee, how about you? Is there a story that pops into your head of a success you've had?

[00:14:14] Dee Johnston: There is one, no there is one that it was not fraudulent. It came through as fraudulent, but then as I listened to her story, it had something to do with a medical, where they send your medical samples. It was out of state and she said, I didn't have, I don't live there. Why are they doing that there? Bottom line what it was is that it was not fraudulent, the samples the, the bloodwork that they took were shipped to a company that read those reports, and through her, through the investigation and through her story that she was telling me. So she was very happy with that.

[00:15:01] Bob: And so you just talked her off this cliff kind of and said no, actually, this turns out to be legitimate.

[00:15:05] Dee Johnston: Yes.

[00:15:06] Bob: I'm sure she was relieved, right?

[00:15:07] Dee Johnston: Yes.

[00:15:07] Bob: Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:08] Dee Johnston: Yes.

[00:15:09] Bob: Unfortunately, often the callers are really suffering. I experienced just a small portion of what these volunteers go through when they sit and talk calls for hours. So how do they deal with the steady stream of sad stories? I sat back and listened to Mike and Dee talk about that.

[00:15:27] Mike Allred: What kind of things were you doing after your calls. I know they're emotionally taxing for you and also for me, honestly, I think for everyone. What are you doing after your calls because I'm a little concerned about my own, I'm getting possibly a little bit too emotionally attached to some of these people I'm talking to. How are you handling the calls emotionally?

[00:15:51] Dee Johnston: I'll tell you exactly what I do is I sit back, put everything, put all my paperwork back in order, turn off my computer, and I sit back and take a deep breath. I think about where I was when I started the groups and when I was in, feeling the same way that many of the callers that call me have felt. And you realize how far you've come, but yet at the same time, like I've said, there are some times when you get on a call and there may be trigger points that come up. But I also have outside counseling that I have learned to deal with so just taking those deep breaths and letting them out slowly, has been very helpful and this might sound funny to most, but I also love McDonald's iced coffee, and I go and do something nice for myself. And I go get me a McDonald's iced coffee. And I'm good to go.

[00:17:01] Mike Allred: Yeah.

[00:17:03] Bob: I'm here to tell you, I, I do probably not as many of these phone calls as the two of you do, and sometimes when I hang up, I just have to go for a long walk or something 'cause, 'cause this, it's, there's no two ways about it; these stories are really heartbreaking. Mike, what do you do to try to help yourself when you talk to someone who's got a really intense story?

[00:17:23] Mike Allred: I lean a little bit on my past background professionally where I have degrees in counseling and whatever, and therapy. That helps me, I think, a little bit from what I went through in professional training and, and whatever and to a certain extent I have to compartmentalize my life a bit that I do this and know that, hey, I am trying to help and I can't take this on myself. That these are not my situations or my problems. All I can do is be a facilitator or a helper. So at least mental I do that. I agree with you; quite often I’ll, I have an e-bike now that I'm getting older. I've always liked mountain biking and whatever, but I'll typically think of some kind of activity that I can do afterwards and typically a physical activity like walking or biking or I live near the mountains here in Utah, or taking a short hike. That release the stress. Also I try not to do an overabundance of this every month. I think that if I did multiple sessions every week throughout the day it'll be very taxing and tiring right now where I'm at in my life. So I try to spread it over the month. That helps compartmentalize it, do a little physical activity, and then again, I rely a little bit on my professional training.

[00:18:44] Dee Johnston: I will tell you, in the beginning I thought, ooh, I'm not sure this is going to be for me because there were some trigger points and then I thought, you know what, I've come too far and this is just another form of therapy for me. And I hope that's okay to say that because what better way; if you're having issues, trigger points, whatever, and you have gone through something like this, what better way to be able to help somebody else while you're going through it. It is definitely therapeutic. It's not just therapeutic for them, it's therapeutic for you as well.

[00:19:27] Bob: And absolutely, yeah, helping others helps yourself, for sure.

[00:19:31] Dee Johnston: Yeah.

[00:19:33] Bob: So the work can be very demanding but certainly both rewarding and healing.

[00:19:39] Bob: Okay, so Dee, I'm going to ask you this question. Everyone's busy, everyone's got lots of things they have to do and whatnot, but you still find the time to volunteer, and I think that makes you special right off the bat. But what does volunteering mean for you in general, and why might you encourage other people to get involved in volunteering for this or anything?

[00:19:59] Dee Johnston: Volunteering is just giving back to your community, letting everyone and anybody know that you're out there, you're available whether it's doing a, working at a thrift store or doing the AARP work, it's, it's giving of yourself to, to others whether it's face-to-face or back in the back. It's very simple, it's just giving of yourself.

[00:20:27] Bob: You say it's simple, but I don't think it's so simple. People have very, people are busy. People don't have time. People don't want to do things for others like this, so I think that makes you special for volunteering, so thank you.

[00:20:37] Dee Johnston: Well thank you. I don't see it that way, but thank you.

[00:20:40] Bob: Mike, what does volunteering mean to you?

[00:20:42] Mike Allred: When I retired about 7 years ago, I was really concerned because I was working 50- to 70-hour work weeks, and how was I going to fill that vacuum basically? And I thought, I'll try to get a little part-time job, which I've done. I want to travel, I want to see my kids, the normal things that retirees want to do. But then I thought emotionally I need to fill this vacuum because I've been in the helping profession doing different things including teaching and whatever and counseling. So I looked around and dog-walking wasn't enough for me, so I, so I changed from that, and then I became a Medicare educator which I do in my county here in, in Utah, providing education and resources to seniors about Medicare, answering their questions, providing training. And then I looked at this AARP thing because of the experience with fraud that I personally experienced after reading that article, and I thought, hey, I'll try this, and I fell in love with it because you really are a first resource, certainly not a last resource, but a first resource in many cases for people who are in pain. And it really emotionally started to fill that vacuum of something that I was missing after I left my work and I was retired. And then I've looked for other, some other volunteer opportunities. Volunteering basically is very selfish for me. Maybe that's what Dee was trying to indicate also. It gives me more than I think that I give back to others.

[00:22:12] Dee Johnston: Yes. Absolutely.

[00:22:13] Bob: One thing that makes me proud to be connected to the Helpline, and I do get paid by AARP, but I would say this anyway, is that the Helpline is a really rare resource where regular people can get nearly immediate help at any time. You don't have to be an AARP member. I've been working in the consumer protection and consumer journalism worlds for many decades and I'm here to tell you, even the best advocacy organizations don't have the bandwidth to help individual folks with individual cases. That makes the Helpline different.

[00:22:46] Mike Allred: When I was ripped off, I had no idea where I could turn. I understood after, I think speaking with a friend of mine, that I ought to contact and report this to the FTC. But my expectation was that somebody would then from the FTC contact me, hopefully with a phone call, if not at least with an email of something that I could do proactively to remedy the situation for myself. I'm like most people who call, they want someone immediately to resolve the problem for them. And I was really frustrated because I made my report, which was good, but I didn't hear anything. I didn't know about AARP. I'd been a member of AARP for about 10 years, but I didn't know they provided this service until I read that article in their Bulletin. It's almost like you have been thrown out of the boat or into the river, and you're drowning, and you want something to grab onto, and the only thing I know that they can grab onto, where they can actually have a one-on-one conversation that I so desired three years ago, is through what we provide.

[00:23:57] Dee Johnston: Everything that Mike said, for sure, and it's just very much needed and then some wish that we did have, of an opportunity to be able to let people know not to be ashamed. We, of course we do that on our calls and stuff, but just so that they, that they know right up with AARP, you're in a safe place. It doesn't, it stays there. And you're going to get a lot out of it. You really are. It's the beginning of your healing.

[00:24:31] Bob: Is it really possible that after going through one of these awful experiences, people do get to the other side?

[00:24:39] Bob: I have heard that from some of the people I've interviewed that obviously they don't wish what happened to them on anyone else, but when you get to the other side of it, something kind of special has happened, right?

[00:24:50] Mike Allred: That's really true of my own circumstance. I think on the negative side I am probably a little less trusting and still working on that, a little more cynical. But the positive side is that I'm more aware and that I have a lot more empathy for other individuals who are going through things somewhat similar to what I went through. And it's not a bad thing to increase your empathy.

[00:25:13] Bob: That's true. That's true.

[00:25:14] Dee Johnston: And Bob, may I add?

[00:25:15] Bob: Is there anything... go ahead, please, yeah.

[00:25:16] Dee Johnston: With all of this being said like Mike just said, with that is there's no judgment. There's absolutely no judgment which is what, not what we need at the time that you're going through this, because you don't need that blame and shame. You, you already feel that enough, you've already beaten yourself up enough. And...

[00:25:33] Bob: And sometimes it's friends and family who say, how could you do that?

[00:25:36] Dee Johnston: Exactly.

[00:25:36] Bob: ... that type of thing, right?

[00:25:37] Dee Johnston: Exactly, and they, and when you, to me the words "feel better about everything" is what I call survival. And, and that's what they become, they become survivors.

[00:25:48] Bob: Talk to someone if you could who is thinking about calling the Helpline but isn't sure that they should. What would you like to say to that person who's been a victim of a crime and they're, I see the number, I don't know if I should call. What do you, what would you like to say to that person?

[00:26:01] Dee Johnston: I'd say, please call, first and foremost. You're going to have a wonderful experience. You don't think so right now because your world has been turned upside down, but believe me when I tell you I've been there. To not call would be devastating because you're not moving forward. And in order to heal, you have to move forward. It's not, and you take as long as you want. People are, everyone is different, so it doesn't mean that next week or next month or next year it's going to be over for you. I personally believe that it's never going to be over and I mean that in a positive way. Meaning that if anything, you're going to move to, to feel more educated and not so vulnerable and the next time, you know, something like this happens and it isn't and it will happen, it's not the, it is the next time because it will happen again, but you're going to be able to recognize it and not go through the same thing. Just make that call and make it the first thing you do and the last thing you do for your survival and your recovery.

[00:27:18] Bob: Mike, what would you like to say to somebody who's on the fence about calling?

[00:27:21] Mike Allred: A lot of the same things that Dee said. I think I would emphasize that, that you feel like you have been violated and this is a way that you can connect with an individual who will listen to you, who will understand your circumstance, who has been trained to provide some immediate help to you, and it's a safe place. So the danger that you're feeling currently, or the anxiety you're feeling currently, can be addressed and that after you've made the call you will feel like at least there's some hope of going forward so that your life will eventually not return to normal, but maybe even be better because of the experience that you've gone through in some ways. At least you will be able to talk to someone who can provide the help that you probably immediately need. So call, because in that immediacy you can start to resolve a lot of the problems that you're currently facing.

[00:28:38] Bob: And rest assured, the folks who you talk to will be both trained and...

[00:28:44] Mike Allred: By the time we've done a lot of this, I think it's not just the training but the experience, and then what Dee and I have both gone through, we're also leaning emotionally into our own life and our own experience so that we can share with others. It's not, it's not everyone who's on the Helpline, obviously, who's maybe gone through a scam or a fraud, but it, many of us have, and when you have gone through that, I think there's an immediate connection to a stranger who's going through the same type of thing.

[00:29:11] Bob: And these volunteers stress help comes almost immediately.

[00:29:17] Mike Allred: I think one thing they ought to be aware of because with customer service, for example, you call and you have to go through some huge phone tree. Or you're not going to get a call back possibly ever, or if you do get a phone call, it won't be timely because it's 4 or 5 days later. With the Helpline, you're not going to experience that. That you're going to get a call back within 24 hours with somebody live who's trained and who can connect with you and provide immediate help for your particular situation.

[00:29:51] Dee Johnston: Just for everyone to understand that never say that there is, that you're alone. You're never alone. With AARP, you're never alone.

[00:30:01] Bob: That's very beautiful.

[00:30:02] Mike Allred: And that you're safe. Again, to emphasize that. No judgment, you're just in a safe place, and it's good always to go to a safe place.

[00:30:10] Dee Johnston: Yes.

[00:30:11] Bob: Once again, I want to thank you guys both from the bottom of my heart. I know what you do. I know you say you get a lot out of it, but I also know it's not easy, and I so admire it. And I am, I mean it that I am proud to be able to say to people, call this number. They're going to help. Great people. Many of whom have been through just what you've been through are on the other side and they're there wanting to help you. So that's an amazing, very unique resource, so thank you.

[00:30:35] Dee Johnston: You're welcome.

[00:30:36] Mike Allred: Yeah, you're welcome.  

[00:30:36] Dee Johnston: You're welcome.

[00:30:37] Bob: AARP’s Helpline is part of AARP’s Fraud Watch Network. In addition to volunteers helping victims, the network has roughly a thousand trained volunteers working in their communities and online to spread the message of fraud prevention. To learn more, visit aarp.org/fraudwatchnetwork. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:31:08] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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