International Fraud and Money Laundering Ring Exposed, Part 2

(MUSIC INTRO)

[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:03] Justin Deutsch: People have worked their whole life and saved up their money, and now they've lost it all. And now they're moving back in with their kids because they've mortgaged their house, their health is declining, their marriages fall apart. It really destroys their life. So, every day that. You're not making an arrest, you're not doing something, you just think, laying in bed at night, like, “Oh God, like who else is losing their money tonight? Their life is being destroyed.” So there's a lot of pressure to try to get it done.

(MUSIC SEGUE)

[00:00:35] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan. When we left our story, “Dollars From Hell”, we left Mary Marr. She of the $10,000 dinners, the $20,000 couches, the millions of dollars stolen from victims who thought they were buying tech stocks. She had slipped through the hands of law enforcement again and again. A red notice issued for her wasn't working. Even though US officials had managed to nab the number two in her operation when he tried to enter Bulgaria using that same red notice technique. They had good intel about where she was and that she was crossing borders where the red notice should have worked. But Mary, who was raised as the child of a father who also ran boiler rooms, well, she has an ace up her sleeve.

[00:01:28] Justin Deutsch: Mary had joined this kind of elite organization. It's called the Sovereign Order of Malta. It's also called the Knights of Malta.

[00:01:37] Bob: That's Homeland Security Investigations agent Justin Deutch. He's the one chasing Mary Marr. We met him in part one of this series, so The Knights of Malta?

[00:01:50] Justin Deutsch: This is a group that does not own any territory, but they are recognized under international law from a lot of countries as being a sovereign entity. And they kind of provide like humanitarian assistance, supposedly, but since they have this sovereign entity status under international law, they are allowed to issue passports that are recognized by a lot of countries in Europe, not by the United States. But a lot of different countries in Europe do recognize them. So what Mary had done is she had been recruited into this organization by another conspirator, who we also later arrested, who was working with her, but he recruited her into this agency. She paid a fee of, I think it was $40,000, and they made her a dame, dame meaning like, uh, the female version of a knight. They gave her that title, so she was Dame Mary Marr.

[00:02:52] Bob: Dame Mary Marr of the Knights of Malta. The wanted criminal being chased around the world by US authorities.

[00:03:00] Justin Deutsch: There's a whole ceremony and everything, and you can actually, if you Google her name in Knights of Malta, I think you can still pull up those photos from their website of her being knighted, given the dame title, and she was given a diplomatic passport. The diplomatic passport can be very powerful. Countries intimidated by the diplomatic status and often won't arrest somebody that's a diplomat. So she was able to evade arrest for several months by using this diplomatic passport and bouncing from country to country.

[00:03:32] Bob: Fitting of who Mary Marr was, she really enjoys having an impressive title. As we learned in Part 1, Mary, literally, grew up in boiler rooms, full of criminals selling fake investments. Her dad ran one in Spain. Then, she started working in one, got very rich, and then moved into the money laundering side of the business. She'd been cashing checks for boiler rooms for many years when an Agent Deutsch started chasing after her.

[00:04:01] Bob: When she was traveling on this, um, diplomatic passport, did she know she was being hunted?

[00:04:07] Justin Deutsch: Part of the time, yes, and part of the time, no. So she, she didn't. She didn't necessarily seek that passport just to try to evade arrest, she sought it more of like a status thing, you know, she was flying around on private jets with these people that are supposedly doing humanitarian assistance in countries, living, you know, the high life, being called a Dame and the like feeling important about what she was doing. I think that was the original motivation. But once she knew we were after her, you know, of course she's going to use that passport to try to evade arrest.

[00:04:43] Bob: So, while Mary Marr is flying around, still living the high life, Homeland Security Investigations agent Justin Deutsch is pulling his hair out. He's been chasing Mary since his investigation into her boiler room contracts began in 2016. And right now, he's stuck. Meanwhile, even though he's been able to arrest some of the members of her money laundering operation, losses for victims keep adding up. And this goes on for six months. It's causing Justin to lose sleep.

[00:05:15] Justin Deutsch: I would say it's, while you're doing it and working it, it's stressful. Especially on a case where there's victims involved, every day that goes by that this organization is still operating, you know that there's people being defrauded, people that are losing their life savings, and when you, you know, interview, when you have these personal interactions with these victims, it can take a toll on you because, you know, for the most part, they're just super nice people. They're, you know, just, they remind me of my parents a lot of times. And they're not, they're not dumb people. They're professionals that, you know, the reason that they're targeted is they have the money to lose. People have worked their whole life and saved up their money, and now they've lost it all. And now they're moving back in with their kids because they've mortgaged their house, their health is declining, their marriages fall apart. It really destroys their life. So every day that you're not making an arrest. You're not doing something. You just think laying in bed at night, like, oh god, like who else is losing their money tonight? Their life is being destroyed. So there's a lot of pressure to try to get it done. But unfortunately, just the nature of these international cases take a very long time.

[00:06:32] Bob: And remember, all this time, Justin is still gathering evidence. So he's reading messages and email conversations like this one sent to Marr by one of her criminal associates. So he knows exactly what they are doing.

[00:06:46] Dramatized Male Voice: Hey, think about this. Right now, wires will be coming from England to Jefferson Bank and TD Bank in consortium solutions accounts. Both banks will be watching closely as the money goes right away out of the accounts to foreign destinations, creating potential problems like documentations, invoices, etc. Now picture this, money received internationally to Jefferson and TD banks is wired through a domestic wire. or deposited with a check into a third bank in the USA. Jefferson and TD Bank won't be suspicious as the money is going in the US. The third bank with a different business name will not be wiring the money offshore. The third bank may not be as suspicious as the money wired offshore originated in the USA.

[00:07:37] Bob: So, he keeps gathering evidence, keeps losing sleep. Until one day...

[00:07:43] Justin Deutsch: But eventually we were able to use some intelligence tactics tied to her cell phone and figure out she was in Serbia. The Serbian authorities were great. They acted right away on our request. They used some technology to figure out where her phone was at and I think was very fitting. When they caught up to her and arrested her, she was in a beauty salon getting her hair and nails done when they arrested her and eventually extradited her back to the United States.

[00:08:13] Bob: She was in a nail salon. Amazing.

[00:08:15] Justin Deutsch: Yep.

[00:08:18] Bob: The Dame of Malta arrested Getting her hair and nails done.

[00:08:23] Bob: You're in this for almost two and a half years at this point.

[00:08:26] Justin Deutsch: Yes.

[00:08:27] Bob: What does it feel like, after you've worked a case for two and a half years, when you finally get someone in custody? Explain that to people.

[00:08:36] Justin Deutsch: So when you do actually take somebody down, it's very satisfying. It's also satisfying on another level because these type of crimes, unfortunately, a lot of people are not held accountable. They're very difficult investigations, especially the international ones. So these types of fraudsters, they get very cocky. They think they're the smartest person in the room. They think they're never going to get caught. They flaunt their money and their wealth. So it is, it's satisfying knowing that they're going to see justice.

[00:09:09] Bob: But Mary Marr's arrest. Isn't the end, it's more like the end of the beginning.

[00:09:16] Justin Deutsch: So now we've, we've dismantled Mary's money laundering network. So we've only made a few arrests at that point. We had other people targeted that we knew worked for her. So we took kind of a two-step approach. Let's take down the other money launderers that were working for her. And then let's start working towards identifying and charging the people that Mary was laundering money for. So these are the people that are going to be in the call centers overseas. And that's the hardest part of this investigation because they're using fake names, fake identities, fake everything. It can be difficult to identify these people and to charge them. But that was our next course of action. And we had some success with that.

[00:10:07] Bob: Success with that, this time, takes Justin to Thailand.

[00:10:13] Justin Deutsch: One of Mary's biggest clients, which is the term that she would use for who she laundered money for. One of her biggest clients was a man named Brooks Nesbitt. He's a Canadian guy. He was operating boiler rooms out of Thailand. She had been laundering money for him for years. We're able to trace some of the financial transactions back to Thailand and using our agents that work over there and the connections they have with local authorities, we're able to eventually traced some of the money to bank accounts in his name and we were able to see, find communications between Mary and Brooks Nesbitt on, uh, on her phone and on emails and other places like that.

[00:11:01] Bob: Here's just a taste of some of those communications over WhatsApp between Marr and Nesbitt.

Marr - Let's get going. Dying. I need business.

Nesbitt - Me too. My expenses are killing me.

Marr - Okay. Any way I can help get the deals moving?

And later, Nesbitt - Send the dough directly to me at this account. I got all the cards ready. Site is up. AlliedSecuritiesCorporation.com.

Marr - What's the company email?

Nesbitt - Info at AlliedSecuritiesCorporation. com.

And even later, Nesbitt - I'm expecting a big week next week with this victim. And my other guy here at at least $150,000 plus.

Marr - woohoo! He calls tomorrow.

[00:11:53] Bob: Authorities use those chats as evidence to indict Nesbitt.

[00:11:57] Justin Deutsch: And Nesbit was, uh, also an interesting story. He grew up in Canada, kind of similar to Mary at a young age. He was recruited for a job overseas. He didn't quite know what it was, but it ended up being a boiler room job. And like Mary, he figured out quickly that it was something illegal, but he was making a lot of money and he was good at it. And he kind of worked his way up from being a junior sales guy to, by the time we arrested him, he was a boiler room owner who had his own boiler rooms and his own employees and was making a lot of money. So we eventually charged him in 2020 and I got to fly to Thailand and observe the arrest. Of course, when I'm in Thailand, I have no authority. I'm there as a guest and Thai police are executing a warrant based on our request, but at that point, it's considered, you know, a Thai arrest warrant, not a US arrest warrant. But they were nice enough to let me come along for the ride and observe him being arrested and the takedown and everything. So that was a really cool experience.

[00:13:07] Bob: But to really take down the entire network, they need Mary's help. At first, that's not in the cards, but...

[00:13:16] Justin Deutsch: So it, it took a while, but eventually she agreed to plead guilty and to cooperate. So the way that works is the lawyers work out all of the legal issues and eventually she does what's called a proffer. So a proffer is, they agree to tell the truth about all of their involvement. We agree to not charge them on further crimes based on what they say to us. So it kind of gives them protection about what they're going to tell us as long as they're being truthful. And part of that proffer arrangement is also usually that they're going to be pleading guilty to what they're charged to. So, she's sitting in prison. She's held Uh, until sentencing, because she's a flight risk, so me and some other agents go and meet Mary for the first time and interview her, and she proved to be very open and straightforward with us, she was easy to talk to, she had a good memory. And a lot of things that she told us is how we were able to get enough evidence against some of the boiler room workers like Brooks Nesbitt in Thailand, and the Jedlekis and Lane Gerstel in Panama. So we used some of what we told her to further our investigation.

[00:14:41] Bob: So you met her at a conference room in the jail I mean, how, how does, how does that meeting work?

[00:14:48] Justin Deutsch: Yeah, so it's, you know, I always say like part of my job definitely involves going to different prisons and interviewing people. And after going through that kind of experience, I definitely do not ever want to end up in prison. It's, it's, you know, it's creepy to me, claustrophobic, and not anywhere I want to spend any length of time. Just interviewing somebody for a few hours in there and I'm ready to get out. But it's, you know, it's a very humbling experience for them, right? Especially Mary. This is somebody who is a charismatic person who really cares about their looks and has had all of the plastic surgeries and makeup and beauty, everything that you can do. And then now, you know, we meet her and she's in, you know, a bright orange uniform, handcuffed. Walking around being given a plate of prison food, so it's very humbling for them, definitely puts them in a different state of mind.

[00:15:52] Bob: I know this is an odd question, but, I mean, was she likable when you talked to her?

[00:15:57] Justin Deutsch: Yes, Mary is a very likable, charismatic person, and, you know, I always thought, and this is the case with a lot of people involved in these type of scams, that if they would apply their work ethic, and intelligence to a legitimate business that they would have been very successful. But I think just the, the draw of this easy and quick money, the greed is what gets them.

[00:16:29] Bob: With all the leads and evidence investigators get from a now cooperative Mary Marr, the investigation moves swiftly.

[00:16:36] Justin Deutsch: And then from there, we worked on another group of overseas targets that were operating in Panama. And kind of similar methods, we were able to identify a husband and wife duo. Tracy and Jeff Jedlicki, they lived in South Florida and operated Boiler Room in Panama. So Jeff Jedlicki was overseas in Panama being a sales agent and helping to run the office. His wife Tracy stayed at home and helped with administrative functions, recruiting people to go over there, doing some calls for them and some other duties. And another business partner they worked with, we ended up charging him as well. So in 2021, we arrested. Uh, three more people that were boiler room workers.

[00:17:25] Bob: And this all leads to a series of convictions.

[00:17:28] Justin Deutsch: But at the end of the day, she pled guilty and was given 14 years in prison. Everybody in the case except for one person ended up pleading guilty. So at the end of the day, we ended up indicting and arresting 13 subjects. 12 pled guilty, one went to trial. Like I said, Mary received 14 years in prison. Michelle Chateau, 10 years. Brooks Nesbitt from Thailand, got 10 years. Jeff Jedlicki, that was working out of Panama, he got 10 years. So there were some significant sentences. As far as assets go, we were able to seize 28 bank accounts. We were able to seize the Jedlicki's home in South Florida, which was sold in auction for over a million dollars. Another subject home in Atlanta.

[00:18:21] Bob: So, this case is international and has now covered four continents by my count, if I'm getting that correctly. This is a very wide case.

[00:18:30] Justin Deutsch: Yes, and also, I think I mentioned Richard Faithfull before, he's a UK citizen, so we worked with the UK authorities, we had him identified as a target, he had laundered a lot of money, but he's a UK citizen, he's in the UK, his bank accounts were in the UK, so what we did in that case is we took our evidence to the City of London Police. And to the Financial Conduct Authority. The Financial Conduct Authority is kind of like the UK's version of the SEC. So we brought them our evidence and they said, hey, we'd like to Investigate this and try to bring charges in our country against him. And we already had our hands full, so we were happy with that arrangement. And they ended up charging Richard Faithful and arresting him. And I think they went to actually went to trial. He didn't plead guilty and he was found guilty. So a person in the UK was taken down. So yeah, it was definitely international.

[00:19:32] Bob: In the end, Investigators say Mary's operation was responsible for stealing more than $14 million from victims. The final piece to wrap up is to try to return some of that money to victims. That's not so easy.

[00:19:48] Justin Deutsch: We seized all of the personal possessions of Mary. That was kind of interesting. We were going through some documents after we arrested her and we noticed that she had paid a large sum of money to a moving company in South Florida. So we followed up on that lead and it turned out that she had moved all of her personal effects from her house in Europe and was planning to move back to Florida. And it was kind of being held in that status for a few months, and that was when she was on the run, so her stuff was just sitting there, and then she got arrested. So, we served a seizure warrant, and we went down to this moving company in South Florida, and I was expecting there would be, uh, you know, like, one or two containers filled of the stuff that she had brought from Europe. It turned out to be something like 25 or 30 containers full of all of her stuff. And we had to go through all those containers and try to figure out, is this worth the government's time to seize this? And sell it in auction or not, because there's a lot of red tape, as you could imagine, to doing that. So, you know, if you see something that's worth $100 and sell it in auction for $40, when you count the amount of time the government spent to do all of that and resources, it probably wasn't it. worth anybody's time. So, you know, me and some other agents are going through these like 25 plus crates full of designer dresses and shoes and purses, jewelry and Louis Vuitton couch and statues and paintings. And I, of course, have no experience in any of this stuff. And I'm, you know, holding up dresses and trying to Google the name on the tag and figure out is this an expensive dress or a cheap dress and should I take this or not? But we ended up seizing a lot of stuff from there and selling it at auction. So at the end of the day, we had about 5 million worth of assets that we seized. And the good thing is every penny that we seize will go back to the victims. The government doesn't keep any of it.

[00:21:56] Bob: Uh, five million dollars, that includes the property, right? Do you have any even rough idea of what was in, how much, how, what the value of the stuff that you seized, the dresses and the shoes and everything?

[00:22:06] Justin Deutsch: So, I think at an auction it sold for around a hundred grand, but people get really good deals on those auctions, because I know, like, just the Louis Vuitton couch alone, I looked it up, was worth like twenty something grand, and we seized a lot more stuff than that, so I guess people got some good deals in that auction.

[00:22:27] Bob: I, myself, did not know that Louis Vuitton makes couches, so that's what I've learned today.

[00:22:31] Justin Deutsch: Yep.

[00:22:33] Bob: $20,000 couch. Okay. Um, people live different lives. Um, I also, this makes me think there's a, there's a pretty good job out there for someone who wants to help you go through expensive clothes to figure out what they're worth.

[00:22:49] Justin Deutsch: Yep, definitely.

[00:22:50] Bob: Fun consulting gig.

[00:22:52] Bob: Why does it take so long for Mary to be sentenced?

[00:22:55] Justin Deutsch: Part of that had to do with when somebody's cooperating, a lot of times their sentencing is going to get delayed because they, they might get some credit on how much time they serve based on if their cooperation was helpful or not. So a lot of times the government will agree to delay their sentencing. And she's in prison the whole time anyway, so it's not like that's a huge benefit to her. She's still sitting in prison.

[00:23:23] Bob: Okay. So, and she's not only spending 14 years in jail, she's also got a, uh, there's, there's a big amount of restitution that she has to pay back if she ever gets out and makes money, right?

[00:23:35] Justin Deutsch: Yeah, so whenever somebody's charged, that's part of it. They're, they're given their prison sentence and they're given an amount of money that they owe for the rest of their life. And this is calculated based on several different factors, but essentially, you know, the portion of the fraud scheme that they're involved in. Yep, so for the rest of Her life, the US government has the authority to seize up to $14 million in assets from her. So when she's out of prison and she's working a new job, if she buys another house, we can come in and take that house. We can take money from her paycheck, everything for the rest of her life until that dollar amount is reached.

[00:24:17] Bob: For the rest of her life, Mary Marr will owe money to the victims of this scam. This Dollars from Hell saga is intense and remarkable, and we have a bit of a post script coming from Justin in a moment. But, we need you to know that boiler rooms selling fraudulent investments are not uncommon. FINRA, the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, is the agency that sticks up for consumers in the investment world. And it has issued a series of alerts about various boiler room scams in the past. More recently FINRA has warned consumers that boiler room tactics have been modernized recently. Criminals fake caller ID information so they appear to be coming from a real brokerage. And as Mary Marr's team did, they set up fake websites to mimic real companies. FINRA offers up these three warning signs of a boiler room scam. An unsolicited pitch, a hard sell, and that pitch is coming from an unlicensed promoter. But to dive deeper into the signs that there's trouble We've invited Andy Smith to talk with us about that. He's Executive Director of Financial Planning for Edelman Financial Engines. But of course, we had to begin by asking him about the Dollars From Hell case.

[00:25:33] Andy Smith: It was unbelievable. So, you know, you hear these stories and when You know, from my chair, when I see these stories about boiler rooms, I think of the Giovanni Ribisi movie from the early 2000s and, you know, he's under the desk and, you know, basically trying to push all of these just junk stocks on these people, but this is what they were doing. Right? It's unbelievable what, you know, what Mary and her, and her cohorts there eventually did and, um, and absconded with.

[00:26:01] Bob: Andy has spent a bit of time trying to understand the criminal minds that pull off these thefts.

[00:26:07] Andy Smith: So there's, you know, there's the psychological aspect of, of fraud in terms of doing it once, seeing if you can get away with it. And then it's kind of a decision tree. Right? So, okay, I did it once, do I want to do the same thing again, or do I want to kind of, you know, stand on the accelerator a little bit more and see what more and more and more you can get away with. And as time goes on and you realize, look, gosh, you look around and nobody's tapping on your shoulder. Interpol, at least at that time, wasn't, you know, knocking down any doors. Yeah, it's just, at some point, you realize that these people are looking in the mirror and they know that they're taking advantage of people. They know that they are stealing, they know what they are doing with those dollars, and the ability to kind of look at yourself and know that you're going to wake up the next morning and do that again. It's hard for me to fathom.

[00:27:07] Bob: Why do boiler room scams persist? Why is this scam so effective for criminals?

[00:27:13] Andy Smith: What I see is that when people will share news stories with me or when we find that people themselves are, you know, or have been the victims of different types of fraud, what I find is that there's just enough of a shred of truth. There's enough, just that little fact that makes everything else that you're listening to seem that much more real. So you could, you could have a hundred words, and if ten of those words seem legit enough, then all of a sudden you start thinking differently about the, about the 90 other words that have been coming out of these people's mouths. The other thing that we see is that depending upon the types of people that they've been calling, you think about, you think about who these people are on the other end. If you are alone, if you have nobody to talk to, if then all of a sudden there's this nice young man or nice young woman who's on the other end of the phone who's talking with you, who's listening to you, who's asking you questions, who you may talk to two or three or four times, you're building this relationship. You're getting this kind of psychological and emotional and mental hit that you're just not getting anywhere else. So you have the mental and emotional aspect coupled with these little shreds of truth, these, you know, two or three or ten words that seem legitimate enough. to make everything else fall into line.

[00:28:39] Bob: A shred of truth. For example, at the time Mary's Boiler Room was placing calls, tech stocks were soaring in value.

[00:28:48] Bob: One of the things that I think is remarkable, not just in this case, but in this case, is you know, they made elaborate fake websites that even showed people balances and proved to them that they were You know, making money. And so they were trying to drag people along a continuum where they would invest more and more. But the fact that these websites were so elaborate, I find that kind of remarkable.

[00:29:10] Andy Smith: Well, it just goes to show you how willing they were to kind of create this kind of operational backdrop, kind of the mechanics to lend those additional shreds of credibility to what they're trying to do. And so when you look at all of the different shell companies into which the money was going, not only would it go into one company, but it would immediately move to another account so that those banks wouldn't necessarily see all of the money moved out in, in rapid succession. So again, when you think about the shell companies that were being created, like you said, the websites that were being created, just the operational backdrop that these people were putting into it. You know, these are not common con artists. There was a tremendous amount of thought, premeditation, and planning that went into this.

[00:30:03] Bob: Andy wishes there were perhaps just a few more speed bumps in the way to prevent criminals from selling fake investments to victims.

[00:30:11] Andy Smith: These people are sitting ducks because they just don't have anybody else to talk to. They have no frame of reference to say, Hey, somebody called out of the blue and wants me to buy their precious gem collection. What do you think about that? You know, and so you never want to be the person who tells mom or dad or grandma or grandpa, you know, no, don't do something, but they really need almost this speed bump of sorts to say, Hey, this is what I've heard. This is what people have been talking with me about. What do you think about this?

[00:30:41] Bob: The best speed bump of all is to hang up the phone when you get an unsolicited phone call for anything, but whenever you might consider investing money with someone. Ever. It's essential to do your homework, to ask questions about who you're dealing with, even if you think you know them.

[00:31:00] Bob: How does someone know that a broker or a website or anyone they're working with who says they're selling stocks, they're actually legitimately selling the stocks?

[00:31:13] Andy Smith: There's any number of ways that you can do some due diligence and, you know, ask different questions. An easy question to ask the person on the other end is, are you a fiduciary? Are you legally obligated? Are you duty bound to do what is in my best interests first, to put my interests before yours? Now, anybody can say that, right? But then, there's some actual research that you would want to or need to do on your side. As you start to figure out who this is that you're talking about, right, go online, search the company name, search the person, you can look at reviews, you can look at any complaints with BrokerCheck, with SEC, there's any number of different outlets that are available for you to do these searches, and I readily welcome people to do that, you know.

[00:32:08] Bob: Always ask questions. Even if the broker is someone who's been recommended by a friend or who you think you know? If the person selling you something is annoyed by your questions, well that's a sign something might be wrong.

[00:32:23] Andy Smith: When I'm talking with people and they say, well, what's your background? You know, why would I listen to you? I want them to look at me. I want them to research me, look at my background and everything else. If somebody's talking with you and says, oh, don't worry about that. What's the matter? Don't you trust me? I thought that we were friends, all of these different things. Look, we can be friends, but you have to do your due diligence. You have to figure out who this is on the other side. So go online, type in these people's names, type in these firm's names, go to broker, check, get to the SEC. There are any number of outlets available for you to do this to, you know, do this sort of research so that you can figure out who it is that you're talking to.

[00:33:08] Bob: So do your research. But it's important to know in the digital age, it's easy to fake websites and email addresses and phone numbers. Remember, Mary Marr's band of criminals actually made fake regulator websites. So even some victims who tried to do their due diligence were led astray.

[00:33:27] Bob: Nowadays, we all do all this stuff online, and so it, it can feel really similar. In fact, one of the notes in I have from this crime is that they, they created fake regulator websites. So, uh, maybe a consumer would go to the wrong broker check style website and look, look up a, a broker. So at any rate, just the fact that all of this is virtual now anyway, I think makes it a little bit, it's harder for consumers to tell what's real and what's fake.

[00:33:54] Andy Smith: You're absolutely right. We see that. I am on the board of directors for the local Better Business Bureau here in Indianapolis. And every kind of holiday season, there's all of these different charity scams. And there's any number of different tools that people can use, like charity navigators, different online reviews. But what we have found is that if these, these, these operators will change just one word or one letter. And so if you're just typing in stuff real quick and you don't look at it, if you don't kind of verify what you're typing, you're absolutely right. You can kind of, kind of hijack almost this traffic because your site address is just one letter, one character different. And now all of a sudden you're playing on that kind of trust factor where people were trying to do their due diligence people were trying to research and, and figure out what was happening out there. But again, it, it, it just goes to show you kind of the, the, the operational nature of what these scam artists were willing to do and did to make this happen.

[00:35:01] Bob: So what is the one best way to protect yourself, but one tried and true way to make sure you're dealing with a legitimate stockbroker or financial advisor.

[00:35:11] Andy Smith: BrokerCheck is probably the best place to start. It's a way for you to enter the name of the person that you're talking to, the name of the institution that they're likely from. But if you can get out to BrokerCheck and do your research, that's a great place to start. From there, there's any number of other issues or other, other. Other ways and resources in terms of FTC, Department of Labor, Better Business Bureau in your particular, you know, in your particular town. But if you can start with BrokerCheck, that's gonna really do a lot of the heavy lifting to get you pointed in the right direction. And how do people find BrokerCheck? Go online. So go on, you know, use your internet, you know, web search of choice. And so basically brokercheck dot finra, F-I-N-R-A dot org and Then you're prompted to type in individuals names, uh, their firm names, uh, the city, state, or zip in which they operate. So you can search by individual, you can search by firm. That's gonna be a great place for you to start. And then, you know, like I said, from there, any number of different options, uh, you know, and resources are available. For a lot of people. Going online is a little bit of a chore, it's a little bit of a burden, and like you said, in today's day, everything, you know, everybody wants us to go online, you do all your research there. If that's difficult, if it's not an option, pick up the phone, call somebody, You know, call the Better Business Bureau, call family members, talk with a neighbor. Physically have that conversation so that you can put words behind what you've experienced and what you're dealing with So that together the two of you can kind of navigate a way forward So it may be difficult for you to go online, but the person that you talk to may be absolutely able to help fulfill these sorts of research needs.  

[00:37:04] Bob: you know I'm looking at BrokerCheck right now It's a very straightforward and easy to use website, but I did not realize you can call them, also.

[00:37:13] Andy Smith: you can the telephone number 800-289-9999.You can even schedule a call. So again, there's a number of ways for you to to, to, you know, to go about this brokercheck.finra.org, the helpline at 800-289-9999. Or again, just pick up the phone. Call somebody that you do know, that you do trust, and start this conversation together.

 [00:37:39] Bob: And if you're already in the middle of a broker relationship. And you're worried you're dealing with a criminal? Begin that conversation immediately with family, with friends, with us here at AARP on our Fraud Watch Network Helpline. Sometimes it's hard to admit you've been victimized, but coming forward is the best thing you can do as soon as possible.

[00:38:00] Andy Smith: You're listening to this and you're thinking, oh my goodness, I think I have been the victim of something that these guys are talking about. If that's the case, it's okay, right? Unfortunately, it's, you're not the first, you're not going to be the last, so if you are, if you do believe that you may have been the victim of something like this, get help. Call people, call somebody that you can trust to start working through this process. If you are listening to this and you think that somebody that you know is the one being taken advantage of, you have kind of a different duty of care, right? You're not necessarily going to own the problem or own the situation, but you're going to be making sure that the loved one is kind of, safe, cared for, they understand what the issues are, and you're going to have to put certain things in place to, to make sure that these sorts of things don't happen again, and figure out just what exactly happened. So, depending upon where you are in that spectrum, If you're the one going through it, it's okay. Get help. If you're the one who is helping somebody go through this, realize that there's a number of sources and a number of resources available for you to be able to help the family member or the loved one through this.

[00:39:21] Bob: I think that's really important advice. When you realize you're in the middle of these things, it can be very, very hard. But the sooner that you reach out, you know, the sooner that, that you can start recovering. And we talk a lot on this podcast about the role that shame plays in victimization.

[00:39:40] Andy Smith: Yeah, you're absolutely right. There's, there's guilt and then there's shame. Shame prevents people from doing things that need to be done. And it's okay if you are the one that has been taken advantage of, but if you don't take steps to make sure that you're not going to put yourself in similar situations again, or if you're not helping family members and loved ones kind of empower themselves to, you know, protect themselves in the future, that's really the issue. And so try to find ways to work through that. Get help, talk with people, you know, and if you are working with somebody, make sure that you are working with a fiduciary. Make sure that you are working with somebody who is legally obligated, duty bound, to put your best interests before your own. And, you know, from there, just keep asking, keep asking, keep asking questions. Make sure that you're understanding what it is that's being put in front of you.

[00:40:35] Bob: Make sure you understand what's being put in front of you. And ask for help from a trusted third party, that's always good advice. After spending what feels like a lifetime on the Mary Marr case, what does Justin want people to know about it?

[00:40:51] Bob: Okay, so It's wonderful that you reached out to me to talk about this story. When you did that, you must have had in your mind, there's something you want people to learn from it. So, so what might that be?

[00:41:03] Justin Deutsch: So I would say the biggest thing is, you know, we've, we've entered this age where the new norm is to do business remotely through the internet, on the phone, without ever seeing somebody in person. And it is really, really benefiting the fraudsters. They are making a killing. Don't do business with a company that you don't know 110 percent is an established reputable company. Meet somebody face to face before you do business. And don't be afraid to ask for help if you're involved in something that you're not sure about. A lot of times, these victims, they might have a hundred grand into it so far. And when you ask them, maybe at the end of the day, they lost a million. You talk to them, they say, you know, after I had a hundred grand and I thought maybe something was weird, but I already had so much in and I was embarrassed to admit I might be wrong, that I just, you know, I just kept going and hoping that it wasn't what I thought. So that, that would be my advice to avoid falling prey to these type of scams.

[00:42:16] Bob: But there, there is almost always that moment where there's a little voice in you saying something's wrong, but for a whole bunch of reasons, you ignore that little voice. And I think that's, I think that's probably the biggest thing I would like people to learn listening to you is just never to ignore that little voice.

[00:42:34] Justin Deutsch: Absolutely. And like you mentioned, shame and embarrassment is absolutely everybody I interview. And it's, you know, people always say, how could I be so dumb? How could I let this happen to myself? Um, and you know, you're, you're not alone. There's, in this case alone, there are thousands of victims. These are professionals, had victims that were equivalent of IRS agents, but from other countries, victims that are lawyers and victims that are investment brokers themselves in other countries. So you don't need to feel alone or embarrassed. There's, there's a lot of people have gone through the same thing.

[00:43:16] Bob: And there's one more thing. Justin is pretty sure this won't be his last massive international crime ring investigation.

[00:43:24] Justin Deutsch: I would say that, unfortunately, this type of fraud is increasing. It's not going away. It's, it's a, and it's because the fraudsters are international by nature. They know that they can oftentimes avoid investigation by, hey, the victims are in one country, but the money's in a different country, and the boiler rooms are a different country. So, a lot of times, each country's law enforcement thinks that it's not their problem, the problem's in the other country. So, they kind of use that international angle to avoid investigation and unfortunately, it's not going away. You know, we need more visibility to this and more resources to work these type of investigations because they take such a long time and so much effort.

[00:44:16] Bob: Justin, well the entire agency, urges anyone who sees suspicious or criminal activity to contact the HSI Tip Line by calling 877-4HSI-TIP, that’s 877-447-4847.  People can also go to the Internet Crime Complaint Center at ic3.gov.

[00:43:24] Justin Deutsch: That's run by the FBI, but a lot of different agencies like ours and IRS and other agencies all have access to that, and that allows you to fill out a detailed form about what happened to you or somebody else and how you're victimized and all the parties and information involved, and that's a tool that's really good for investigators to be able to look up to find victims and Leads on Investigations.

[00:45:06] Bob: FINRA has a bullet list of five things to look for to protect yourself from boiler room crimes, and we want to make sure we share those with you. They are, one, decide now to decide later. Never invest in something the first time you hear about it. Always take a pause, a real pause, like a day or a week or even a month, and give yourself a moment to do some research. Two, check with regulators and other third parties. Use FINRA and the other sites we've mentioned to look for signs something is wrong. Three, research the promoter. Specifically search for the person's name or the company's name to look for complaints. Four, don't give second chances. It's common for boiler room callers to call again and again, even if you answer “no” the first time. Just keep answering “no”, just keep hanging up. And finally, remain vigilant. A criminal boiler room call can come at any time. When you're sick or distracted or something else is going on, it only takes a criminal one moment of vulnerability to steal from you. So, remain vigilant. If you receive what you think is a suspicious, investment related call, you can contact FINRA at its website. There's also a special toll-free securities helpline for seniors at 844-57-helps. That's 844-574-3577. And of course, you can always call the AARP Fraud Watch Network at 877-908-3360 for the perfect scam I'm Bob Sullivan.

(MUSIC SEGUE)

[00:46:58] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us or just send us some feedback. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Sarah Binney; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

(MUSIC OUTRO)

END OF TRANSCRIPT