Golfer Steals Thousands From Charitable Causes

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[00:00:02] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:05] Bob: Well what did he tell you about himself?

[00:00:07] Lindsay Meisner: He just said that he is partially retired. He played semi-pro baseball and now he just does a bunch of stuff for the Wounded Warriors and fundraising for kids and just focuses on doing that kind of stuff. So obviously it triggered me. I'm like, "Oh, I'm a vet." And then I'm like, "Oh, I even have a Make-A-Wish kid." So then, I mean it just opened dialog and it was like he just, I don't know it was weird, because I, he hit me with the two things that matter most to me, so it's, it was just, I don't know. I was like, oh, like who else has the same interest than mine, you know?

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[00:00:46] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:52] Bob: The urge to give, to help; it's a beautiful human quality when we admire and we encourage. Sure it's about money, but it's about so much more than that. Generosity, that giving spirit often comes from the heart more than it comes from the head. And that, well criminals know just how to exploit that. Today's story is a bold, cruel exploitation of the urge to give by a serial exploiter. But it's also a lesson in how you can nurture that charitable impulse and use it so both your head and your heart do the most good. Lindsay Meisner is a veteran and a single mom living in Scottsdale, Arizona, with a pretty complicated life. Her young daughter suffers from cystic fibrosis, so hers is a life in and out of doctors' offices and hospitals. But this life of extreme challenge has also made her extremely generous. So when a chance comes to help veterans or to help sick kids, she often jumps at it. And recently, the stars seem to align for her to contribute to all the things she cares so deeply about in a very unlikely place. Let's meet Lindsay.

[00:02:06] Bob: So when did you start playing golf?

[00:02:07] Lindsay Meisner: My grandpa was a huge golfer, so we, I mean I started when I was little. He used to make us line up in the basement and do putting machines.

[00:02:15] Bob: I'm picturing all these kids lined up putting, hah.

[00:02:16] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah. He literally, you, you would sit there and putt and get back in line. Putt, get back in line.

[00:02:22] Bob: That's amazing.

[00:02:23] Lindsay Meisner: He wasn't messing around.

[00:02:24] Bob: You have a good short game still?

[00:02:26] Lindsay Meisner: You know what, I always, they call it a Boca Putt, but like instead of using, I, I putt from really far away, 'cause I'm good at it, so I don't know, I've got to give it to my grandpa for that one.

[00:02:37] Bob: There you go. And uh you think of him pretty much every time you pull...

[00:02:41] Lindsay Meisner: Oh yeah.

[00:02:42] Bob: Pull out a golf club, right?

[00:02:42] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah, I mean he's right there.

[00:02:45] Bob: Lindsay loves to play golf, but her busy life as a single mom doesn't really leave much time for casual strolls on the golf course. Her child has CF, Cystic Fibrosis, a very serious and complex genetic disorder.

[00:03:01] Bob: I think it's important that people understand how hard the life of a mom with a, a kid with CF is. Is, is there any way you can kind of explain that to people? You don't have any minutes for yourself, right?

[00:03:11] Lindsay Meisner: No, I mean it's just constant, it's every day, it's surgeries, it's medications, it's, yeah, it's not easy. I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy.

[00:03:21] Bob: One day recently, an old friend called who had been going through her own rough time, and there was a lot to talk about. No better place for a long, difficult conversation like that than on the golf course.

[00:03:35] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah, my friend, actually her dad died and I hadn't seen her in a couple of years, and me and her went through kind of a lot, I mean, she was like, Linds, I haven't seen you in a long time, my dad actually just passed away, and you want to go golfing? And I was like, well I've got stuff to do but I'll rearrange some things and let's go, let's go do it. So we met for lunch and headed out to go golf.

[00:03:58] Bob: Just the two of you.

[00:03:59] Lindsay Meisner: Just the two of us.

[00:04:00] Bob: It's a big deal to get this much time away, right?

[00:04:02] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah, I never have a free minute with, between my daughter and trying to keep up work and trying to keep up with my parents and keeping everybody going, you know.

[00:04:13] Bob: So Lindsay and her friend get their golf clubs ready, meet at the golf course, start chatting right away, and head out for the first tee when...

[00:04:22] Lindsay Meisner: Well he was sitting waiting like, I mean how you, you check in, and then you go to hole 1. He was sitting there waiting like he was with our group.

[00:04:31] Bob: He is a man who says his name is Robert. He's a solo player ready to join a group. Now if you've never played golf, that's not so unusual. On busy courses solo golfers or couples will be matched up, often with perfect strangers, to make a foursome which will then play the 18 holes together.

[00:04:52] Lindsay Meisner: And he was like, "Well I'm going to play with you guys." And we were like, "Well, we're just going to play." And he was like, "Well I'll just, I mean I'll, I play all the time, I'm, I'm quick," and I mean me and Kim are both just, we talk to anybody and whatever the case may be, so we're like, whatever, you can play with us. We're riding in our cart, we're hitting from the women's tees, you're doing your thing, so, we were like whatever, you can play with us, you know.

[00:05:13] Bob: Not unusual. I, I've gone out as a single and you join up with some other group is it's actually polite to the course, right?

[00:05:19] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah, and I mean golf is just a sport where you feel like, I mean I don't know, like there's people that you can kind of trust out there, so I was like, oh he looks like he's my dad's age, you know, he has a polo on, he has his, like it's not like some weirdo that you would have thought, okay, I don't want him to golf with us, like he looked like a normal, just a nice, older guy.

[00:05:37] Bob: So they all tee off, and for several holes, they barely talk.

[00:05:44] Bob: But was, was he a pretty good golfer?

[00:05:45] Lindsay Meisner: You know what, it was like, I mean he wasn't bad, but he wasn't excellent. Gol--, golf is one of those things too, you know, nobody's a pro unless you're playing all the dang time.

[00:05:54] Bob: Right, like everybody's bad at it essentially.

[00:05:55] Lindsay Meisner: You could have a really bad day, but the next day you play really good, so.

[00:05:59] Bob: But he, at least he could keep up with you.

[00:06:00] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah, he could keep up with us. I mean he was like try and give us tips, 'cause it was Kim, she literally, her, when her dad passed away, she got some money, and she was like, well I want to start taking golf lessons and start doing this. So he was trying to help her with you know he was like, "Oh do this, do that," after we got 6, 7 holes into it, and you know he started this small talk, so. And I was like, well I can't, I mean I played softball, so I'm not the best one to teach you how to do it. I just do it.

[00:06:24] Bob: Got it. Was, was it in like a bossy, male sort of way or was it just friendly?

[00:06:28] Lindsay Meisner: No, just a nice person, just like, hey, just try and do this and you know it might help you, and then he'd just move along.

[00:06:35] Bob: But by the time they approached the back nine, Robert starts to open up a bit more.

[00:06:41] Bob: Well what did he tell you about himself?

[00:06:43] Lindsay Meisner: He just said that he is partially retired. He played semi-pro baseball and now he just does a bunch of stuff for the Wounded Warriors and fundraising for kids and just focuses on doing that kind of stuff. So obviously it triggered me. I'm like, "Oh, I'm a vet." And then I'm like, "Oh, I even have a Make-A-Wish kid." So then, I mean it just opened dialog and it was like he just, I don't know it was weird, because I, he hit me with the two things that matter most to me, so it's, it was just, I don't know. I was like, oh, like who else has the same interest than mine, you know?

[00:07:18] Bob: And then their new golf partner mentions a fundraiser he has coming up soon. A fundraiser for Wounded Warriors.

[00:07:26] Lindsay Meisner: He just started talking. He was like, "Hey, you know what, we're having a golf tournament, and we have to have one um, female player." And he's like, 'cause I was playing pretty good, and he was like, "Do you want to play with us?" So I was like, "I don't know, let me think about it," you know, and so then we played 18 holes, so it just like conversation just kept going.

[00:07:43] Bob: And just for people who don't play golf, how long did it take you to play these 18 holes?

[00:07:48] Lindsay Meisner: 4½ hours, maybe 5.

[00:07:50] Bob: That’s per--, pretty normal, but that's a lot of time to spend with a stranger, right?

[00:07:53] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah, a lot of time.

[00:07:55] Bob: Okay. So you finish 18 holes, he's asked you to play with him. He's a, he's dropped mention of a, of, of doing some charity work. Did you commit to anything at that point?

[00:08:03] Lindsay Meisner: No, I didn't. We, me and Kim were going to go into the clubhouse and grab a bite to eat, and he was just walking in there like he was going in there too to have a beer. They all knew his name. All of the bartenders knew his name. Everybody in there knew his name, so I was like, oh, like he must have a membership.

[00:08:18] Bob: Um, does he, does he end up sitting with you while you eat?

[00:08:20] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah, well we sat down and grabbed a beer, and he was like, "Well do you mind if I sit with you guys?" And there's only like four tables in there, it's super small in there. So I was like, we didn't care. We were like, whatever, we're, we're finally have a good day. Like we've been out, we golfed, like we were happy, we had a couple drinks, and it just was like, it felt like normal.

[00:08:37] Bob: And at that point the discussion moves on from the Wounded Warrior golf tournament to another fundraiser Robert says he's working on.

[00:08:45] Lindsay Meisner: I said, "Well what do you guys have coming up for, for the kids charity event?" 'cause I told him about my daughter having cystic fibrosis. So I was talking to him about that when we were talking about the children's charity, and he said, "Well we're doing coupon books, and I always donate 1500 of every single by zip codes worth of books to a foundation, so I would love to donate it to your daughter's." And I was like, "Well that would be awesome."

[00:09:10] Bob: Plenty of schools and youth groups raise money through coupon books. Community businesses donate discount coupons. A printer assembles the coupons into a book, families pay $25 or so so they can buy a book with these coupons, and then the charity and the printer split the money at the end. Robert asks Lindsay to front the cost of printing the books but tells her she'll get that money back when the books are sold.

[00:09:36] Bob: And, and how much did the coupon book cost?

[00:09:37] Lindsay Meisner: $5000 to print.

[00:09:39] Bob: So a $5000 cost upfront, but after all is said and done, Robert says she'll get that money back and there will be $1500 in profit leftover which can be donated. It feels like a great idea for Lindsay at the moment because while she does have a few thousand dollars saved up, she can't really afford to spend it or donate it, but she can afford to lend it to the cause.

[00:10:04] Lindsay Meisner: I just bought a place for my mom, a trailer up the road so that she can come down here from South Dakota, because it clearly, I mean my daughter's sick and I want here to be able to spend time with her.

[00:10:14] Bob: Sure, sure.

[00:10:14] Lindsay Meisner: And so I was like, well if I can do that versus donating on my own or raising it, I mean it was just going to save time and it was all still going to go to the same spot.

[00:10:25] Bob: Sounds like a perfect proposition.

[00:10:27] Bob: Lindsay is so excited at the chance to make a difference that she doesn't stop at one coupon book.

[00:10:35] Lindsay Meisner: I was like, well maybe I'll do one more zip code, 'cause then I could, I could qualify for a table at one of the events, like we can use it and then can take like 8 people from the people that we do the charity golf tournament with, with the veteran one. Then we can all go to the CF event and get a table. I was like, well that'll make sense because then everybody can go and it'll be fun for everybody and the vets, you know, like I was like, "We can turn this into just a bunch of good stuff.

[00:10:59] Bob: Yeah, sure.

[00:11:00] Bob: So they leave the golf course and Lindsay is excited about the chance to do good on multiple fronts.

[00:11:07] Lindsay Meisner: And I said, "Well just call me sometime this week and I'll be around and then I can meet you and, and give you the money." And so he's like, "All right." So then the next day, um he text me and he said, "Hey, um, you know, do you want to meet me at Starbucks on Tatum and whatever? I'm, I'm going to be done golfing." And I said, "Yeah, I've got to pick up my daughter from school and then I can, I'll drop her off at home and I can meet you over there." And I said, "What's the guy's name that prints the books?" And he gave me this other, the guy that's supposed to print the books number. And so I text him and he said, saying, "Oh it'll take about three weeks, you know, to a month." And so I'm like, "Okay."

[00:11:45] Bob: When Robert meets with Lindsay, he says he wants to get started right away. So he asks for the money in cash.

[00:11:54] Lindsay Meisner: And I had cash because I had the money, well the place that I bought my mom was like old and rundown. So I just, like I had bartend 10 years ago for a while, so I just always saved that cash. So I was like, well what, I mean I might as well use it. I'm not going to go pull it out of the bank when it, I had that cash sitting there, which was supposed to be to buy my mom's deck and help redo her place, but I was like, I'll just get it back and then I'll do that.

[00:12:17] Bob: You got two of these $5000 books, right?

[00:12:19] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah.

[00:12:19] Bob: So you gave him $10,000.

[00:12:21] Lindsay Meisner: Yep.

[00:12:22] Bob: Man, how, how did you feel when you handed over the, the cash and walked away that day?

[00:12:26] Lindsay Meisner: Ah, I don't know. I felt okay, like I just felt like I was doing good.

[00:12:34] Bob: But not too long after this meeting at the coffee shop, Lindsay calls Robert to see how things are going and something seems wrong.

[00:12:44] Bob: So you're going on with your, your very busy life.

[00:12:46] Lindsay Meisner: Yep.

[00:12:46] Bob: You're thinking it's going to be; it's going to take a month so you're not really even thinking about it, and then what happens?

[00:12:51] Lindsay Meisner: Um, I call and his phone's shut off. And my stomach sank. And so I called the printer's number, stomach sank, no answer. No...

[00:13:02] Bob: Oh no.

[00:13:03] Lindsay Meisner: It's all turned off.

[00:13:04] Bob: It's all turned off? What happened to the printer? What happened to Robert? Lindsay has a bad feeling about it all, so she gets in her car and heads back to the golf course to see if any of Robert's friends there have any idea what's going on. What Lindsay doesn't know as she drives to the course is that Robert is really Robert Alexander, and Sergeant Joe Lewis of the Scottsdale Police Department's Financial Crimes Unit has had Robert Alexander under surveillance for several days.

[00:13:37] Joe Lewis: The very first complaint we got was, "Hey, I gave this guy $950 to, to join uh the Wounded charity, Wounded Warriors charity event, golf event, and then I looked him up and there's no such thing." So that is what spurred us on to okay, let's, let's start looking into this, 'cause it, it shocked the senses. It shocked our senses in that he's pretending to take money for charity.

[00:14:00] Bob: There is no Wounded Warrior Golf Tournament. In fact, within a few days, several complaints come in about this man hanging around a local golf course and some local pubs too, talking up his charitable work.

[00:14:15] Joe Lewis: And then I saw like, hey, here's a couple of cases that match, it sounds like the same suspect. And same deal where one, they met at a, a bar and he was buying rounds of drinks for people. And he had mentioned that hey, I'm doing this Wounded Warrior's charity event, I put it together, and here's the cost. And another one where they met on the golf course, the same deal where it was the 13th hole and he was smoking a cigar and they asked him to join for the rest of the round. And he did, and he mentioned the Wounded Warriors Project and he enticed both of those victims to put in money for the Wounded Warriors charity event program which didn't exist.

[00:14:51] Bob: The investigation escalates very quickly. The police sergeant realizes he needs to act before more citizens are victimized.

[00:15:01] Joe Lewis: He stole four times from Scottsdale citizens $950 each, that's good enough for me to get him off the street in whatever capacity. But we started pulling threads, and you start realizing and doing, using investigative techniques, following him around doing some different things, why is he doing this? Why... you start realizing, oh, there's more to it than just that one scam.

[00:15:25] Bob: You picked him up pretty quickly.

[00:15:27] Joel Lewis: We did. And part of that was the fact that we knew he would be, he's local, and that he was, he's continually trying to get money from the citizens of Scottsdale and other people, and visitors of Scottsdale. And once we had him identified, we kind of moved into, it's, it's, you know locate and apprehend mission.

[00:15:49] Bob: Sergeant Lewis is there when they apprehend Robert.

[00:15:53] Joel Lewis: We had tracked him to an apartment complex that actually was just a few miles north of my residence. And so when we realized he was up there, I, and we had made the decision to arrest, I got out there as quick as I could and I found his vehicle, so then I started surveillance on his vehicle while I was getting the arrest team in place, while they were rolling in. So I was sitting there and I recognized his vehicle when his girlfriend's apartment was right across the street, and almost immediately as the team, the arrest team moved in, he walked out. So got out and they put him in handcuffs. And I think the only...

[00:16:31] Bob: Was he surprised?

[00:16:32] Joe Lewis: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah-yeah. He was certainly sur--, surprised, and I think he was, the one thing I remember from that interaction was, I was wearing a Marine Corps ballcap. And along with my, you know obviously tactical vest and, and uniform. But I wore that in honor of my daughter who was an active-duty Marine, and as well as her husband, and it, 'cause that was shocking to me reading that the Wounded Warriors, which has to do with helping veterans. So to me, I saw him look at that and I was hoping that I never said any words to him, that he would understand why we were there.

[00:17:12] Bob: During questioning, Robert tries to explain away all the complaints, but police found him with a critical piece of evidence.

[00:17:21] Joe Lewis: When he was arrested, one of the detectives that was with me in our apprehension unit found a, after searching, the $5000 check in his wallet. There was a whole 'nother victim, Bob, that we didn't know about that, that they had just, he had just given the suspect that check. So...

[00:17:38] Bob: But did, didn't apparently have time to cash it, so...

[00:17:40] Joe Lewis: He did not.

[00:17:41] Bob: ... rescued that victim?

[00:17:41] Joe Lewis: We did. So we contacted the victim and he, and he told us that it, it's the same MO that we've been describing already, you know, I met him at a bar, and um, he was doing these different things, and buying rounds of golf, and he talked about the school coupon and that I could do this and I'd get a tax deduction, I was going to get paid X amount a month, and it was never cashed, never negotiated, and that, that victim helped us in the prosecution, but that added to it, and then initially he told the detective, "Oh I sold, I sold a set of golf clubs to him." Which was a lie.

[00:18:14] Bob: The lying is to be expected. But Scottsdale Police are prepared for that.

[00:18:20] Joe Lewis: He admitted to some things. He just didn't have an excuse for it, and again we know that people who use charm, the personality trait of charm to conduct their crime will try to charm the detective you know in their, with their presence and with their words and with their story. So they'll do that over and over ago, or go, say in this case, like certain things, well I planned on you know doing the school coupon, this other, well when the detective said, "Have you talked to the school?" "No." So it's things like that, like little half-truths, like I was going to do this or I was going, you know, I thought about doing the Wounded Warriors thing, so it's getting everything together. Meanwhile, he's telling people, "Oh, it's in August," you know, a couple months away.

[00:19:00] Bob: At roughly the same time that detectives are questioning Robert, Lindsay pulls up to the golf course and dashes in looking for answers. They come quickly.

[00:19:10] Lindsay Meisner: So then I went into panic mode, and I'm like, oh my God, like so I went down to the golf course. And they're like, "Oh, you didn't hear?" And I'm like, "No, what are you talking about?" And then they told me. "Well they arrested him and and he's a scammer."

[00:19:24] Bob: Oh my God. Wow.

[00:19:27] Lindsay Meisner: So yeah, and obviously then I just broke down because it, like I had saved that for my mom's place. Now I'm having to come up with money for the fundraising that I already said that I would do. So I just, it was bad.

[00:19:43] Bob: So did you call the, the friend who you were with that day?

[00:19:46] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah. I called her and she was like, "Well, I just talked to him yesterday." And I'm like, "Well, on what phone?" And she was like, "The same number that you had." Because she was going to invest some of the money from her dad.

[00:19:59] Bob: Oh my God.

[00:19:59] Lindsay Meisner: But she lived in Mesa, so she couldn't do it. Like she didn't have time to meet up with him. She was working and just hadn't had time.

[00:20:06] Bob: Thank God.

[00:20:06] Lindsay Meisner: Yep.

[00:20:07] Bob: Wow.

[00:20:08] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah.

[00:20:08] Bob: And so she must have talked to him hours before he was arrested.

[00:20:11] Lindsay Meisner: Yep.

[00:20:12] Bob: Wow.

[00:20:12] Lindsay Meisner: Yep.

[00:20:14] Bob: As soon as Linsday hangs up with her friend, she turns to the internet. And now armed with Robert's real last name, thanks to the arrest news, she makes an even more shocking discovery.

[00:20:26] Bob: What kind of things did you find about him?

[00:20:28] Lindsay Meisner: Um, just the years that he spent in prison. He had had scams that went on from 20 years ago. I mean he's just, like he's a career criminal.

[00:20:37] Bob: A career criminal? Turns out Robert only got out of prison on his prior conviction fairly recently. Lindsay is so angry that she calls a local TV news station.

[00:20:49] Lindsay Meisner: I called them just because I was like, hey, if he's out there and he's doing it to other people, then people need to know, like this guy's targeting all of these golf courses in Scottsdale. He looks like a normal guy.

[00:20:59] Bob: And after Robert's story appears in the local news, victims start coming forward from all over.

[00:21:06] (news clip) (inaudible) investigate is digging into a man accused of claiming to be helping to raise money for veterans. Instead, police say he pocketed that cash.

[00:21:15] (news clip) And since his arrest in August, we've learned more than 20 additional people have come forward saying they lost tens of thousands of dollars in...

[00:21:23] Bob: And as police and journalists start digging into Robert's background, his even darker past comes into focus. From Arizona's 12 news...

[00:21:34] (news clip) We did some digging, and it didn't take long to find out Alexander has been accused of running schemes for 20 plus years here in Arizona, facing more than a dozen civil lawsuits for not only taking thousands of dollars, but millions. The biggest case we found started in 1998 when Alexander convinced dozens of investors to finance an import and export business he said he was running. It worked. Over the course of 5 years, they gave him $21 million dollars. Alexander keeping the lie going by showing sham documents to make them think he was making money. Instead, federal records show he was using those investment funds to buy Rolex watches, diamond rings, and flat screen TVs. Once the investors figured it out, they got the FBI involved. Alexander was charged with wire fraud in the Ponzi scheme. In 2006, he pleaded guilty. The court ordered Alexander to pay $9.9 million in restitution and sentenced him to 8 years in prison.

[00:22:35] Bob: This new case against Robert is fairly easy to prosecute. Remember, he was found with an uncashed $5000 check. And he eventually pleads guilty and is sent back to prison for 7 years.

[00:22:47] Bob: So what do you think of that?

[00:22:48] Joe Lewis: I think it's great. He got 7 years, plus, you know, he got about $378,000 in restitution. A lot of that, some of the cases we combined with the Arizona Attorney General's Office because they found more victims of other in--, investment crimes that he could be, he pled to them all. It's challenging though, you know, because he did 8 years, came out and did the same exact thing. He only told us he only operated on cash because he had restitution. We couldn't go find a bank account where we could seize the money and give it to the city court so they could see if they could give it back to the victims. He came out, he did the same exact thing. He was living in a Scottsdale hotel, paying cash every week, and all he did was go to the golf courses and go out to eat and go to the bars and buy rounds of drinks, and just worked his story.

[00:23:37] Bob: You know, one little detail Lindsay gave me that was just astonishing was when they, they played their round, and then they went to the club to get lunch or whatnot, and when he walked in with them, everyone who worked there acted like they knew him, so clear--, clearly he'd been hanging out there for at least a while. Uh, I mean that's just so much of an investment in time, and frankly, money...

[00:23:55] Joe Lewis: Right.

[00:23:55] Bob: ...to, to build up that kind of third-party verification which is so effective running a crime like this.

[00:24:00] Joe Lewis: It's perfectly, perfectly effective. One of the victims said, "Oh I've seen him in, in the bar for six or seven months."

[00:24:06] Bob: Wow.

[00:24:07] Joe Lewis: So think about how long some of Bernie Madoff or anybody, how long they're in that community and can so ingratiate themselves that if I say to Bob, "Hey Bob, that, that gentleman, I wouldn't trust him." And you say, "No, Joel, I, I got him, I know he's trustworthy because this is... he's been here 6 months."

[00:24:25] Bob: Yeah.

[00:24:27] Bob: Lindsay gave Robert $10,000, and while she is in line for restitution, but it's a long line, and she'll probably never see any of that money. And she was left pretty shaken by the whole experience.

[00:24:42] Lindsay Meisner: Like I, I cried and couldn't sleep for, I mean probably six months after that. And it doesn't really matter where you're at, because you would think that good, the people who are golf courses are at least, I mean you would hope an older guy in a polo sitting there talking about and Wounded Warriors, that they would be a good person. Like you just wouldn't think that they would target such vulnerable topics, but maybe that's the, the kicker. Because they know that it pulls on you.

[00:25:12] Bob: Yeah, they, they know where to go. He knew, he knew exactly where to sit and, and lay his trap.

[00:25:17] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah. He, I mean he was literally sitting there waiting. I'm like, I just don't know how much easier it could have been set up for him.

[00:25:25] Bob: Hmm.

[00:25:25] Lindsay Meisner: That's just what always weirded me out. I was like, I felt like I was set up for this. Which it can't be. I mean it was like, how did this manifest?

[00:25:35] Bob: It's hard for Lindsay to shake that Robert pulled on her two heart strings so hard on wounded veterans and on sick children.

[00:25:43] Lindsay Meisner: That's so sickening, like why would anybody ever do that? Like I just can't fathom lying to somebody about those things, like...

[00:25:53] Bob: Oh yeah. No, it's, it's...

[00:25:54] Lindsay Meisner: It's like oh, no, it's $10, no it was $5, it's like you're lying about this is my life.

[00:26:01] Bob: Yeah, and you're lying about sick children.

[00:26:01] Lindsay Meisner: Like this is my 8-year-old daughter.

[00:26:03] Bob: And you're lying about Wounded Warriors, and oh my God.

[00:26:05] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah. Like everything that you would never think somebody would have the, like how do you, do you ever sleep at night or even wake up and walk around?

[00:26:14] Bob: So Lindsay will have to wait until she can fix up her mom's trailer nearby so she can come help with her daughter. And the fight for her child's health continues.

[00:26:25] Lindsay Meisner: She just had a major surgery again two weeks ago. We're actually taking her Make-A-Wish trip next week. She wanted to go to Hawaii and go um, snorkeling and stuff like that, but they called me yesterday, and she has pseudomonas, so that's not good. And we're starting 14 days of high dose antibiotics, so we'll see, she'll be on it the whole time we're gone. So we'll see how she does.

[00:26:46] Bob: But you're still going on the trip.

[00:26:47] Lindsay Meisner: Yep.

[00:26:49] Bob: Great. And hopefully...

[00:26:50] Lindsay Meisner: We're still going.

[00:26:50] Bob: ...you'll be able to go snorkeling, right?

[00:26:53] Lindsay Meisner: Yeah, I'm hoping so. It's just going to kind of depend on how it, I guess Cipro makes it so that it's, you're super sensitive to the sun, which obviously we're going to be in Hawaii. So we've got to watch that, and then it's just dizziness and things like that, so I don't want her out in the water and then the next thing you know, you know. So we'll just need to pay attention, extra, extra attention which you already feel like you do that every day anyway, but just watch her that extra close.

[00:27:19] Bob: It was important for Lindsay to talk with us because she never wants anyone else to go through an experience like this.

[00:27:27] Lindsay Meisner: I've thought about this so many times. It's like don't want everybody to be weary and never trust anybody, but I mean when it comes to anything over 100 bucks, I wouldn't be trusting anybody unless you know them and there is a banker involved. It's just, I mean it's horrible.

[00:27:42] Bob: Yeah, it’s, it's disgusting, it really is.

[00:27:43] Lindsay Meisner: It's disgusting. It's like the scam world is taking over, people just being normal humans and helping one another out. And it's sad.

[00:27:54] Bob: We can't let it uh, we can't let it take our spirit away though.

[00:27:57] Lindsay Meisner: No, you can't. And you can't, you can't live like that because you can't wake up being scared every day. That doesn't do anything for anybody.

[00:28:04] Bob: Yeah.

[00:28:05] Bob: Joel, the police sergeant, talks a lot about the spirit that criminals drain from victims. Confidence, self-assurance, trust. And the main tool that criminals like Robert have to inflict pain on victims. Shame.

[00:28:19] Joe Lewis: The victimology is you know we just have to stop blaming the victims and that's kind of a cultural thing I, I think, but we feel bad and we should feel ashamed. I, my grandson, should be able to walk three blocks to school without being attacked. But we don't do that. I should be able to leave my keyboard unlocked, but we don't do that. I should be able to leave my purse, my wife leave her purse in, in the car seat. But if her purse gets stolen, people, "Oh, you shouldn't have done that." Instead of blaming the criminal, they blame her for leaving her purse. So we've gone away from hey, a normal safe community, you should be able to do these things. So let's put the onus, put the blame where it belongs, it's on the criminal behavior, not on the victim. So that's part of the reason why I think I would feel embarrassed, and I would, or that someone else would be embarrassed, and they, they shouldn't be embarrassed by someone who's a professional charmer. They're snake charmers. You've been emotionally kidnapped is what I call it. You've been emotionally kidnapped and you're held hostage by that, and all you do is hate yourself for how could I fall for this? And that's the victimology that goes with it. I shouldn't have to worry about hitting a button on my computer. I shouldn't have to worry about not picking the thing at the top of the Google screen because that's a paid for position, and it doesn't mean that is actually Charles Schwab. But that's how we have people losing money. They're not doing anything wrong. These are good citizens trying to do the right thing. Just like we have people giving money into cryptocurrency ATMs because they think they have a warrant with the Scottsdale Police Department. Is it their fault that they're doing that? No, they're actually trying to do the right thing, to pay for a warrant. So we've got to flip the, flip our brains around to say these are victims, not only of a financial crime, they're victims of this culture that contributes to blaming the victim. And I don't know what the answer is, Bob, other than we have to continue to talk to our communities. As you would, I would talk to any community at any time.

[00:30:19] Bob: Sergeant Lewis is right, we shouldn't have to live in fear, we shouldn't have to imagine there's a minefield behind every person, every keystroke, and every charity. And we should keep talking about putting blame where it belongs, on criminals, not on victims. But until we can make that more kind, more perfect world, we all have to do what we can to protect ourselves. To that end, we invited Bennett Weiner onto the podcast today to talk about just the ways we can give into our better angels to act out on our charitable impulses while still protecting ourselves. Bennett is an executive at the Better Business Bureau Wise Giving Alliance, which is a charity monitoring organization. It operates the website Give.org, a great resource for backgrounding charities. But before Bennett and I talked about those research tools, we talked a bit about what happened to Lindsay.

[00:31:14] Bennett Weiner: The sad part is is that a con artist in some cases may be using the name of a well-known organization that is trusted, that, and is recognized. And in this particular case they were using the name of Wounded Warrior Project, which is a charity that we evaluate that meets our standards. So if you, one, we're going to look at the charity's website and see what they're about, you may get confidence, and oh yes, this is an organization I want to support. But the flip side of the con is that the individual didn't check as to whether this particular fundraiser was authorized and legitimate. So, you know, I think an important thing for people to recognize is whenever you're giving a, a big donation of a significant amount, you really need to do more homework than you would usually in terms of a smaller gift, and that means, in some cases, contacting the charity to find out if the particular fundraiser activity is something that is authorized by them that they know about. Because from time to time, unfortunately, although it's rare these problems happen and you have to be on the lookout for them.

[00:32:11] Bob: One of the elements of Lindsay's story that fascinated me, they, they played golf and they hung out for 5 hours. It's a long time to talk to someone uh before he even started to approach this. That, that strikes me as, as really sinister. Do criminals often spend that much time say grooming their victims?

[00:32:27] Bennett Weiner: Sometimes, yes. If they're, again, seeking to get a significant amount. And they're usually going to seek out trusted environments which, in which there's socialization. And the golf course certainly sounds like it could be one. Another example that we've heard about over the years is sometimes houses of worship are also used as a place where you get to know people in a particular circumstance, and you have an environment in which you're not questioning intent among other things.

[00:32:55] Bob: One warning Bennett issued me right upfront, is that many consumers are used to spending a lot of time researching a business investment or a stock but spend much less time researching their donations.

[00:33:09] Bennett Weiner: That’s right, and you know, charitable giving in some cases is an emotional decision, not necessarily always just a logical one because people are moved because of a cause. And I think the typical thing is a disaster, or, you know a nat--, a natural disaster or some other tragedy around the globe where people want to react and, and help in any way they can and their interest is in doing something immediately. And so they're more inclined to seek out to make a gift and they may contribute to the very first person that asks who is associated with some cause that's addressing the issue and not think twice about it. But that's the time when people, again, are inclined to give without looking more so than other times. And that's when we tell people even more important to be cautious around those emotional times when you're motivated to react right away, you need to step back and it just takes literally a couple of clicks to find out more about a group so you can give with confidence. But, but the vast majority of people aren't doing that, unfortunately.

[00:34:12] Bob: Bennett says the safest thing to do is to give directly to a charity that you want to support.

[00:34:17] Bennett Weiner: Go directly to their website and give to them directly. If you're really interested in that organization, you don't have to go through a third party like that. You can give directly to the organization knowing that your gift has been received by them. A third party, there can be questions that come up. And sometimes this happens when there isn't ill intent. So for example, there's a disaster, it may be a tornado, a hurricane, an earthquake, or some oth--, other horrible tragedy. You, you want to give and help a disaster relief organization. And so sometimes what people do, they're raising money in a charity's name and then promised they're going to take those funds and give it to that charity. Well, I would say in all likelihood in most cases that’s going to happen, but there are also going to be situations, unfortunately, where the money eventually doesn't get there.

[00:35:04] Bob: What are the advantages to going through a charity's website and using say a credit card to make a donation as opposed to, you know, handing money over to someone. What are the advantages there?

[00:35:14] Bennett Weiner: Well, uh first of all, you're going to have a record of the donation on your credit card, you know, come tax time, if you itemize that you've given to that organization. If there is a problem with the gift or if something happens, you can always go back to the credit card company to try to resolve the matter. It provides a, additional controls and it also helps ensure that the, the organization itself has received the funds safely and securely on their website.

[00:35:43] Bob: As for deciding whether one charity or another is going to do good with your donation, Give.org has an extensive list of safe giving tips on its website. Bennett summarizes them for you here.

[00:35:56] Bennett Weiner: Yeah, sure. I, I would say the first thing that comes to mind is watch out for cases of mistaken identity where a charity name that you may hear may sound like an organization you know, but in reality, it, it isn't. And uh you need to look at the name carefully, you know just because an organization has cancer in its name doesn't mean that they're all associated with one another, for example. So uh if you're not sure about who you're dealing with, again, do a little work to verify that the organization is the one that you have in mind. The other thing is, and this is really important, not to uh give it... succumb to pressure, to make an on-the-spot gift, whether someone's coming to your door or a telemarketer or you, you have some other personal approach that's being used, you don't have to give immediately. You know you take your time to find out more about the group so you can give with confidence. And uh, the other thing I'd say is to look at the appeal that you get and you know watch out for situations that in the appeal that bring tears to your eyes but don't really tell you what the organization is doing to address the problem. You shouldn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out what the organization's activities are. The appeal itself should be clear about what they do. And uh, check the organization's website for information about uh their achievements, their activities, so you can get a better handle on, on what they're all about, of course. In terms of checking with outside parties, go to a charity monitoring organization, uh such as our organization at Give.org, to see if they meet our standards. Another possibility is check with state charity officials. Uh, there are about 40 of the 50 states that have specific regulations uh that require charities to register with those offices in order to solicit in those states. It doesn't mean that the states approve or are recommending that charity, but they have to go through that process in order to solicit. And you know, a lot of people out there that are requesting money for tax-exempt organizations, but not all soliciting entities are necessarily charities. It's okay to support those other groups if you want to, but you want to verify that the organization you're contributing to is indeed a charity that is tax-exempt under what is known as Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code which is the section of the code that defines charities. If you want to get a deduction for the organization you have to give a contribution to an organization that has that exempt status.

[00:38:21] Bob: It's always good to get you know a, a second opinion if you will on the charity you're going to give to. Uh, I'm at Give.org right now. It's a very simple and straightforward website. "Find charities you can trust. Enter a charity name." You just type in a charity and when I hit the search button here, what am I going to see?

[00:38:36] Bennett Weiner: Well, you're going to see uh organizations that have that particular name or, you know, a portion of that name in the title and you click on that and then you will get to the report on the organization that we have. And the report typically summarizes our evaluation in terms of indicating whether the charity meets all of the 20 standards that we have, and if not, which specific standards are not met. And then you can find out what the reasons that they are noncompliance with that standard and then make your own decision based on that assessment.

[00:39:06] Bob: Okay, so the website works great. I typed in Wounded Warrior and interestingly enough, I got six results. The top one has a logo next to it that says "BBB-accredited charity," so that makes me feel good, but they, the other ones seem to be sort of a, I think they're all legitimate, they just are smaller related organizations.

[00:39:23] Bennett Weiner: Well there are other organizations that may use part of the name as part of their name, and um, again, that doesn't necessarily mean that something inappropriate is happening, but you're going to find that with popular causes that there are sometimes some name similarity, and that's why you have to look carefully.

[00:39:41] Bob: So when I click on the full report for Wounded Warrior Project, there's a huge checklist here about governance and finances, measuring effectiveness. There's tabs for purpose programs, governance and staff. There's even a notation of how many complaints, in this case three, a very small number.

[00:39:58] Bennett Weiner: Right.

[00:39:58] Bob: So I, I think this is a, I don't know, at a glance just a really quick way to get a, a good grasp of what this organization is about. Okay, so you mentioned the standards. What are the, uh BBB standards for charity accountability?

[00:40:10] Bennett Weiner: Well these are a set of, of 20 guidelines that we use to evaluate a charity, and they were put together with a lot of assistance from the charitable community and other experts in philanthropy when they were last revised. There are four major sections of the standards, and the first one is governance. And governance is first for a reason because the buck does stop with the board. The board of directors of a charity really is the entity that is in control of the organization and has oversight over the operations and staff. Effectiveness. There we, we are talking about what is more commonly known as results reporting which is that we believe that every couple of years an organization should put together some type of report for its board of directors that describes how we'll they're addressing their mission. And finances, we're going to be checking again how much they spent on programs or for fundraising. We do look at some ratios and have some threshold categories on that. And uh, the appeals of the organization information materials. They'll verify that the appeals are accurate and truthful both in whole and part, that the website of the charity includes certain basic information about their program's finances and governance, and that the organization is making certain disclosures on its website about donor privacy so people know how their information is going to be used by the organization.

[00:41:31] Bob: All this technical discussion of charity verification is certainly important, but perhaps even more important, tough stories like Lindsay's, the reality that we do here about charity scams and misuse of donated money, well that might have an impact on generosity in general.

[00:41:49] Bennett Weiner: Right, you know recent statistics has shown that while the total amount given to charity each year in the United States generally goes up, one unfortunate fact is that the number of households who contribute to cha--, charity, has actually been decreasing in recent years. And there is a significant concern that this is going to erode philanthropy and, and uh, I think the current response that many charities are having is to rely more heavily on wealthier donors to contribute to them. However, I think that the average donor who's even giving a small amount is a vital part of philanthropy in the United States and I would hate to think that just because there are cautions about certain circumstances such as the one covered in today's podcast, I hope that people won't be more reluctant to give. I hope that they will still, you know, are enthusiastic about giving because they're a really important part of the revenue source of so many great and wonderful causes that really need that continuing help.

[00:42:50] Bob: I'm so glad you brought that up, because I think that's really important, and I hadn't heard that data point before that while, and, and it seems like there's a smaller number of families who are giving more to sort of compensate for at the moment, but do you really think that news stories in general, cynicism about charities is eroding the number of donors who, the number of people who are willing to be donors?

[00:43:10] Bennett Weiner: Well, I don't know if that's really the cause. I think there are many factors that may influence giving, such as the economy and uh people's comfort level with their own financial situation among other things. Well I think you know, the old uh adage, "If it bleeds, it leads," in terms of journalism, bad stories on charities get more attention, uh sometimes than the good ones. And that's what people remember. The overall vast majority of charities are managed well and people shouldn't think that just because there are exceptions that they should be hesitant to give.

[00:43:44] Bob: Just because there are exceptions, you shouldn't be hesitant to give. Shouldn't let the criminals steal your generous spirit. It's just a good idea to spend a little more time researching the places where you share that generous spirit. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:44:10] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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