A Hawaii News Icon and a Sweepstakes Scam

no... (laughs) He wanted to come wherever I would go.

[00:04:50] Bob: Kirk and Linda become a power TV couple in Hawaii, and along the way Linda brushes elbows with some amazing people.

[00:04:58] Linda Coble: Al Michaels was my sports anchor when I first went into television news in Channel 4, and that was the ABC affiliate. He was so kind, so mentoring, and he understood that I was up against a roomful of guys (laugh) and he was extremely understanding and supportive, and I loved him. He was great. Several years later, Kirk and I were at our stadium here in Honolulu going in for a football game, and all of the sudden this VIP car rolls up, and somebody gets out of it, and he goes, "Coble, Coble, Coble, Coble." That's the way Al Michaels used to call me, "Coble, Coble, Coble."

[00:05:47] Bob: Linda and Kirk make a beautiful life in one of the world's most beautiful places.

[00:05:53] Linda Coble: I was very lucky to have someone who already had two children and they were growing and having a nice life, and so everything was okay. And we were married 35 years before he passed from cancer.

[00:06:08] Bob: I'm so sorry. When did that happen?

[00:06:09] Linda Coble: That happened in '16, 2016.

[00:06:15] Bob: Ten long years ago, Linda lost Kirk though I'm sure you can tell, he is still very much with her. But Linda felt very alone earlier this year when, well, it seems like some very good news arrives.

[00:06:30] Linda Coble: Yeah, in March of this year, I get a call from the US Customs Department in Hawaii, and he said, "Linda, there is a package that you were to receive, but it has been delayed because of the--, several reasons, and I want you to please call this number so that they can keep you up to date and make sure that you are the recipient of this package." It all sounded so real. And so I said, "Okay, I will." Gave me the phone number.

[00:07:09] Bob: A package. Linda isn't expecting anything, but before she has too long to wonder about what it is, while she's watching TV in her living room, watching the news, of course, when...

[00:07:21] Linda Coble: The person at that number called me and his name was Mike Diamond, and I swear to God the guy was so nice, but at the same time, seemed so official. And he said that he was with the US Customs Office working on behalf of Publishers Clearing House as the Chief Financial Officer, and he congratulated me for winning the Sweepstakes Prize of $5,500,000 and a bonus Mercedes Benz.

[00:07:58] Bob: More than $5 million, and a Mercedes Benz?

[00:08:01] Bob: How do you feel when you get information like that?

[00:08:04] Linda Coble: Of course, at first I thought, oh God, this is, you know, a ha-ha, ho-ho-ho, but I'll tell you, he described the, what the US Marshal guy had called me about the delayed package.

[00:08:17] Bob: So they both tell the same story, and soon after, Linda gets another call. It's a different man with the Marshal's office, and he has more details about the prize and the mechanics.

[00:08:30] Linda Coble: I got a second call from the Marshal's Office. Even though they had called once, it was like, "This is Jacob Berger." He said that he was with the bank in cooperation with all others involved in this prize award of 5 million, 6 hundred--, 500 thousand dollars, and a Mercedes Benz, and don't tell anybody, and I'll keep you on-- online with payments that need to be done, because this needs to have IRS payments made, taxes on the check. Of course, Linda, all of this stuff will come back as soon as we present the check, and all steps have been completed. Don't worry about that.

[00:09:17] Bob: So there are some taxes Linda has to pay, and crucially she is not to tell anyone about what's happening, and it all happens very fast.

[00:09:30] Bob: So in this, within this, this one phone call he says you've won $5 million and a car, but also you're going to have to talk to the IRS and make some payment. That all happened at once?

[00:09:38] Linda Coble: That's correct. And it was not too long after that, that I got the check in the mail.

[00:09:45] Bob: You got the check in the mail, wow.

[00:09:46] Linda Coble: Yeah.

[00:09:47] Bob: And you get an actual check for how much money?

[00:09:50] Linda Coble: Oh, 5 million-500 thousand...

[00:09:54] Bob: What did, what...

[00:09:54] Linda Coble: ...from Bank of America.

[00:09:56] Bob: It's a Bank of America check for $5 million. What does it feel like to hold a check like that?

[00:10:01] Linda Coble: It was exciting, but it seemed all like part of the deal that it wasn't going to be mine until I did all this other stuff I was concerned about.

[00:10:10] Bob: Got it, got it. You, you weren't tempted to go to the bank and cash it?

[00:10:13] Linda Coble: Oh, I was told not to, and if I did, everything would be over with.

[00:10:16] Bob: And that check comes with a reminder.

[00:10:23] Linda Coble: And of course, I was told when I received it, and of course a phone call followed during that day said, "Please don't tell anybody. We are, we don't want to spoil the excitement of this, but there is the check. Don't deposit it yet. Don't do it, do anything with it. Just hide it. Don't lose it," and all that.

[00:10:47] Bob: Okay, so where did you hide the check?

[00:10:49] Linda Coble: Oh down my bra. No, I didn't.

[00:10:53] Bob: (laughs)

[00:10:55] Linda Coble: No, I just put in a drawer.

[00:10:58] Bob: She just puts that $5.5 million check in a drawer. But she doesn't forget about it, not at all. In fact, she starts dreaming about what she'll do for other people with the money.

[00:11:11] Linda Coble: When you spend your life volunteering being involved in charities throughout the island, starting charities. I started the Big Sisters in Hawaii before they had Big Brothers. Big Sisters. They had Big Brothers only and that pissed me off, so we started Big Sisters and it went national. All kinds of wonderful things happened in the volunteer world here in Hawaii and continue, and I loved being in the middle of it. And so for some reason that popped right into my head as soon as I saw that $5 million check. And I started to write a list of all of the organizations that I would love to practically finance for the rest of their productive lives.

[00:11:59] Bob: That sounds so lovely that your first thought when this windfall comes to you is that you wanted to help charities.

[00:12:04] Linda Coble: Yeah, well absolutely. (chuckles) I love everything that the volunteers in Hawaii do, and I love the agencies that they are supporting. Hawaii is a really, truly, generous, giving aloha-spirited Āina land. And it is the place that I love, and want to help, and that's what I thought I would do.

[00:12:34] Bob: But before she can do that, Linda has some paperwork to deal with.

[00:12:39] Linda Coble: I got a letter from the Prince Kuhio Federal Building, which introduced me to the IRS Chief Financial Agent, Dan Smith. A letter came from Dan with his photograph on it officially signed by him, and a list of all the taxes that I had to pay in order for this check to be legitimized, and also his endorsement of Mike Diamond, the person who has been calling me, also with his okay on US Marshal's Office Jacob Berger who had also sent me a picture of himself. So everybody seemed to be in unison, even though they were in different parts of the government.

[00:13:31] Bob: The first tax she has to pay is $3000. She writes a check and follows their instructions. And in short order, there are several more taxes to pay.

[00:13:43] Linda Coble: I remember I had to do five $1000 money order payments to Gail O'Brien, who was the woman who would call every once in a while and say, "Hi, this is Gail from New Mexico. I will look forward to those checks. Put them in my name." And I did, and she said, "I'll forward them onto Publisher's Clearing House after I put them through the ringer." And I said, "Okay."

[00:14:08] Bob: And there are several more requests for money, but not to worry, she's told. She'll get all those upfront payments back soon, and then she'll be able to cash that check.

[00:14:19] Linda Coble: And it was interesting too because every time I would write a check say for $5000 for whatever it was, as soon as I was done, I was supposed to go back in my car and call Mike Diamond and tell him I did it, and show him on the phone my receipt. They were so careful with everything that I began thinking, yeah, this, they're real. They're following up. They know because they have to pay me back. They need to have every cent justified.

[00:14:55] Bob: But also, they sent you pictures of their family, right? So these are people you got to know, right?

[00:14:59] Linda Coble: Oh yeah. He was so sweet, and he would always then say, "Okay, that's it, Linda. Aloha." He was using Hawaiian language.

[00:15:11] Bob: It's been a whirlwind of a month, but Linda feels like she's just about to get access to that money, just about to fund all those charities when she gets another bill for taxes and this is a big one.

[00:15:23] Linda Coble: So now we're, that was March. In April, in mid-April, there was a request from Mike Diamond who said, "Before we can come to Hawaii and celebrate and deposit the check, we were told," he said, "by Bank of Hawaii," which is my bank, "We were told by Bank of Hawaii that they would not accept the check, with that amount without insurance being paid in advance. They said the insurance would be $45,000, and would you please immediately send the check to," and then there was, I think it was an IRS address or something. And I was supposed to do that. Well I was concerned about that.

[00:16:15] Bob: Concerned about that because, well, Linda doesn't have that kind of money.

[00:16:21] Linda Coble: Because you know what I had done, I had taken out my savings, my IRA. I had put all of the money I had saved, which wasn't much, 65 thousand, into the checking account to cover all these bills that I had to pay for yeah, oh my God. And so I was, in Hawaii we say, ujee, not feeling good about this.

[00:16:48] Bob: She's out of cash, and she's not feeling good about all of this, so she reaches in the drawers, grabs that $5.5 million check and...

[00:16:58] Linda Coble: And I went to the bank and showed the security agent the check. "Is this real?" I said. He looked at it briefly, "Nah, it's not." And it didn't take him a second to say, "Not real."

[00:17:15] Bob: Not real, in one second he tells her. And in that instant Linda realizes it's all been a scam.

[00:17:25] Linda Coble: And he went through all of the other stuff that I had gone through, and we discussed it, and he said, "Never talk to Mike O'Brien again. Never talk to Gail O'Brien again. Mike Diamond, Gail O'Brien, get them off your list." And I did. And that was the end of it.

[00:17:46] Bob: How much money had you sent to them?

[00:17:49] Linda Coble: I'd say I'd sent about 55,000.

[00:17:54] Bob: Oh, that's so painful. Ugh.

[00:17:56] Linda Coble: It is painful because that was my retirement, that was what I'm going to be living on.

[00:18:02] Bob: And you withdrew from your retirement account to pay these bills, right?

[00:18:05] Linda Coble: I closed my retirement account. And I put every dollar I had in it into my checking account so that I would be able to cover the checks that I was writing out my kazoo.

[00:18:19] Bob: Linda stopped talking to the criminals, but they don't give up very easily.

[00:18:25] Linda Coble: Mike called almost every day. He left messages, "Where are you? I miss you. Are you okay? We've got a couple more things to do before we come and celebrate." That kind of talking. But I, you know, kept my mouth shut and didn't pick up the phone.

[00:18:41] Bob: And they continue to reach out to you in different forms, right?

[00:18:46] Linda Coble: Yeah. And Mike continues to call. He hasn't called though for almost two weeks, so I assume he figures that's enough. You know what else? The bank agent told me that's not a human. That's AI.

[00:19:02] Bob: Oh gosh. Oh yeah, probably.

[00:19:03] Linda Coble: I know.

[00:19:03] Bob: Yeah.

[00:19:05] Bob: It's devastating. Linda's nest egg is gone, it's all been stolen by these criminals.

[00:19:12] Bob: But what was the moment like for you? How did that feel?

[00:19:15] Linda Coble: I felt stupid. I have to admit. I felt like I have obviously been scammed.

[00:19:26] Bob: And the pain. It's much more than financial.

[00:19:30] Linda Coble: And also physically. It's interesting when you are sucked in and you feel like you've been gut-punched with just ooh, embarrassment and so on. I can't walk very well. I'm a nervous wreck. My bones hurt, and I know it'll ease away, but it's interesting how physical this kind of reaction can be, not just oops. It's ouch!

[00:20:01] Bob: You can feel it in your body, this tragedy, right?

[00:20:05] Linda Coble: Yes, I can. And I've, um...

[00:20:10] Bob: I'm so sorry. What you describe though about the physical reaction to all this, it's very real, and we don't talk about that enough. It's very painful.

[00:20:18] Linda Coble: It is, and it's really, if you're somebody who oh, let's see how I can put this... aside from a sock in the stomach and a heartbeat change of speed and all of the things you have to feel every day, um, it's embarrassing.

[00:20:39] Bob: Yeah, sure.

[00:20:40] Linda Coble: And it, yeah, and you know how that is to feel embarrassed about something, no matter what it is. It affects your mentality, and lowers your excitement level and, and sticks you in a corner where I didn't want to be, and so I got out of that hot possible corner and told my story.

[00:21:03] Bob: Linda decides there's something she can do. She can tell her story, something she's done all her life.

[00:21:10] Linda Coble: When you're a television news anchor and you've been in the business for a long time, granted I'm retired but everybody remembers me, and I appreciate that very much. And I thought I, okay, I'm going to use it. And that was one good thing from having been scammed. I could tell the people of Hawaii, uh, television news interviews, which I arranged.

[00:21:37] Bob: Okay, you go to the bank, they tell you it's fraud. You realize, oh my gosh, much of my retirement money has been stolen, and your first urge is to use your TV experience to, to get out there and tell people about this, right?

[00:21:50] Linda Coble: Exactly.

[00:21:52] (clip) Linda Coble is a familiar face for many. The retired news anchor and reporter spent 25+ years on local TV and radio. She never thought she'd be someone on the other side, the victim of a scam.

[00:22:06] Linda Coble: I was extremely proud to be able to go on each TV station because I had something I wanted to share, and those stations let me on, and interviewed me and beautiful stories and you showed the paperwork that I got and very terrific, and the ov--, overwhelming calls that they've received; the outcome has been very positive and oh, Linda, I'm not, me too, I didn't tell anybody. I should have told somebody.

[00:22:39] Bob: Now after all those years at the anchor desk and playing reporter, what was it like to be on the other side of the interview?

[00:22:45] Linda Coble: It was terrific because I was in a chair not too far from the person who was reporting the story and interviewing me, I had that feeling of having been on the other side with a microphone, and it was kind of strange, but I was so grateful that they were taking the time to talk to me about something that was, I don't know, you would think it was crazy that I would fall for this. Are you nuts? But knowing that I could make a difference. I loved the way each interview because I went to each station separately. Each interview was different. They had the reporters asking me for certain things to show, take pictures of that I had received in the mail. Every reporter did it differently, and yet, every message came out loud and clear, the one that I wanted to share. And I was so proud of having spent my career with a microphone in my hand or behind the anchor desk.

[00:23:52] Bob: And the risk she took going on TV to tell her story, that pays off.

[00:23:59] Bob: You heard some other victims.

[00:24:01] Linda Coble: Oh yeah. I can't walk down the street now (chuckles) without having a wonderful stranger come up to me and say, "Oh Linda, I had the same thing happen to me. Man, thanks for saying anything, because I never did either. That kind of attitude is just the best." "Linda, I thank you so much for telling the story. I shared it with my auntie, and if I hadn't done that, then I would have been screwed and..." everybody had a story to tell. I've been hugged by total strangers who say, "Thank you for telling your story because I couldn't tell mine. And I'm broke." Those kinds of reactions have been so gratifying and I hope everyone got the message that if something like this happens, tell somebody and don't continue to be sucked in. And there, if you are a winner, there are other ways of finding you and having you be truthfully a winner. Not this way.

[00:25:05] Bob: Well I think it's so lovely that strangers come up to you and hug you and say thank you. That must go a long way towards making you feel better.

[00:25:13] Linda Coble: Oh, it does, absolutely.

[00:25:15] Bob: That's really sweet, going on television, hopefully talking to us is actually helping you feel better about it all?

[00:25:20] Linda Coble: I think it is, definitely. There was a period of time where I couldn't talk this long without (sigh) having to suck it up and blow it out because my heart was beating so hard. And now I know that when I get up from the chair where I am now sitting, it's going to hurt like hell. My knees are hurting. My bones hurt. There is a physicality to this when you have an emotional situation. I will be going to the doctor soon and discussing what I need to do, what I need to take.

[00:25:57] Bob: Linda is still dealing with the fallout from all of this.

[00:26:02] Linda Coble: I have a plan of some kind, but it's not a very strong one, and I will not be going on vacation for any long time soon.

[00:26:14] Bob: You had to do a whole bunch of other things because of this, right? Like you had to change your passwords and all. Can you walk me through what you did in reaction to this?

[00:26:21] Linda Coble: Yes. I was, I vul--, I made everything vulnerable. So once I learned that this was a scam, I had to go through many processes. I had to, first, I had to get my credit report frozen, and then that was okay. I had to call the FBI and fill out the IC3 government website document. I did that. Talked to a federal agent here and discussed what was going on and let him know what I had done. I had to change my Social Security because that's the only place any money that I have left will go into my checking account. So I had to change that and the checking account. And I had to update my passport and I swear, it's crazy.

[00:27:17] Bob: So much work, and it's, again, it's just somebody else did this to you and you're the one who has to go through all of it.

[00:27:23] Linda Coble: Yeah.

[00:27:23] Bob: Yeah.

[00:27:25] Bob: One really big lesson from this experience, something Linda stressed when she went on TV to tell her story; when someone tells you not to tell anyone, that is a huge red flag. Instead, make sure you talk with family and friends.

[00:27:41] Linda Coble: If, if you get a phone call from a, someone that you don't know and is sharing some exciting news with you, just hang up and tell somebody. Tell somebody if you didn't hang up and you're working with somebody. Tell somebody. That was my fault. I didn't tell my sister, I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell the Feds, I didn't tell the bank. I kept my mouth shut because I thought I had won $5,500,000 and a Mercedes Benz, and I was going to make a big difference in Hawaii with all that money, and sharing it with all the groups that I had worked through all my life with here in Hawaii, nonprofits. I figured, alright! And I can pay off this and do that and have fun. I didn't tell anybody because I didn't want to lose that opportunity.

[00:28:37] Bob: Of course she wishes that she had been able to talk with Kirk about all this.

[00:28:42] Linda Coble: Yeah, I was married to a wonderful guy who was always by my side, and we worked together on the news, as a matter of fact. If I had been told that I had $300,000 in the bank that we could take it over, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. When I think about Kirk, I get crazy. Okay, I'm ready. If I had the opportunity to speak with my loving husband who passed, I would have told him, and he would have immediately told me to call the Feds. Hang up, don't do it. Because he probably would have been a little bit more realistic, and I was just so excited thinking that I had won money. It would have made me think twice, and it could have ended this whole crappy thing. I could have saved all my money that I had been saving all my life, but no, I spent it on a dream, and I wish Kirk had been here, because I think he would have shared with me, don't.

[00:29:53] Bob: Hmm, so that's something we find all the time. If you just talk to one other person, usually just because the other person isn't the one who got the phone call, right? They provide this slight outside perspective and but the other way would have worked too. If Kirk had been in the middle of this and he talked to you, you would have said, "Don't do that," right? So that's what people do for each other.

[00:30:12] Linda Coble: Right.

[00:30:14] Bob: What is the message that you want people to hear loud and clear?

[00:30:18] Linda Coble: Do not assume. This is something, my first response would be do not assume that you are a winner, that you have the opportunity to spend money all over the island and everything that you hear is a reality. No, it is not. And it is also very dangerous for your family because you're sucking the money out of their givings in the future, like me. I don't have anything left in my bank other than my Social Security. And I had to change my bank account for that so that they wouldn't take that money also. It's something that I would tell, do not answer a call that, or continue on the phone with someone saving, saying that you won something. There are other ways to let you know that are legitimate if you need to be worked with in order to receive whatever they're saying you receive. The phone calls, no. Hang up when you don't recognize the call.

[00:31:26] Bob: Well thank you very much for all your time, Linda. I really appreciate it, and I do hope little by little it starts to feel better, and I'm, I'm sure all those hugs from strangers go a long way.

[00:31:35] Linda Coble: Yeah. Bob, have you ever had that feeling of making a difference, what you're doing?

[00:31:43] Bob: I hope so. I don't think I'm making the difference that you are by talking about what happened to you, but we got some nice, some really nice emails from listeners and from victims, and it does fill your heart.

[00:31:53] Linda Coble: That's great. Thanks, Bob, for doing whatever you're doing how many times, I don't know, but don't stop believing!

[00:32:02] Bob: We've done more than 250 of these, and unfortunately...

[00:32:05] Linda Coble: Awesome.

[00:32:06] Bob: ...there are lots of stories that are unique, and so the stories just keep piling into us so I, we're not going to run out of work.

[00:32:11] Linda Coble: Yeah. Yeah, it's increasing, and that's what I've been told by the Feds and everybody else that I had to talk to. And so all these warnings that you're sharing, it's very important.

[00:32:24] Bob: I have to say, talking with Linda was pretty amazing. These conversations do warm my heart, all our hearts here at The Perfect Scam, and at AARP's Fraud Watch Network. All these warnings are important, even if sometimes they are about crimes which aren't brand new. To talk a little bit more about warnings, we have a friends of The Perfect Scam here, Amy Nofziger. She is the Senior Director of Fraud Victim Support at AARP's Fraud Watch Network.

[00:32:53] Bob: And what is the Fraud Watch Network?

[00:32:56] Amy Nofziger: The Fraud Watch Network is, in general, it's a free resource for anyone of any age and you don't have to be an AARP member to utilize it. We really focus on three things; education and prevention, helping people understand what scams look like and how to avoid them, and certainly having a voice. We want people to understand that we're fighting for them at the federal level, state and local levels with advocacy when it comes to fraud protections, and then certainly the victim supports. We want people to understand that AARP has programs, resources, and people that care about your fraud experience and are here for you when you go through a situation as bad as these fraud situations are.

[00:33:35] Bob: And that resource includes a phone number where people can call and get help, right?

[00:33:39] Amy Nofziger: Yeah, absolutely. That's the Fraud Watch Network Helpline and that number is 877-908-3360 and in 2025 alone, we received 100,000 phone calls from people who called the Helpline to get guidance and resources about their fraud situation.

[00:33:58] Bob: 100,000 phone calls. Wow.

[00:34:01] Amy Nofziger: Yeah.

[00:34:03] Bob: Linda's story is, well very familiar to Amy.

[00:34:08] Amy Nofziger: The Publisher's Clearing House is the problem that will not go away. My first phone call from a victim, almost 25 years ago now, was a Publishers Clearing House victim from the imposter scam. So it's always there, it's always there in our top 10, but I would say probably over the last 9 months to, to a year, it's stayed in the top five complaints that we hear every single day. And so I can't stop talking about it. I think everyone thinks, oh, the new scams are all these high tech whatever, and it's nope, it's just a phone call from someone saying that you won a prize in the Publishers Clearing House. It's pretty low-tech. It's pretty simple. But the reason it's so popular right now, I guess, is for lack of a better word than popular, is that it works.

[00:35:00] Bob: It, has it been, so it sounds like there's been at least a bump of it in the last 9 months or so. Do you have any kind of speculation even as to why?

[00:35:09] Amy Nofziger: Well, I mean, I think it could, you could look at many things. I; there's not a day that goes by that we don't hear people maybe losing their jobs or getting laid off for, what is it, the threat of AI or gas prices are up. But we also know that Publishers Clearing House, the company in general, went into bankruptcy, and then was bought out. So it brought their name, it was bought out by another company, but it brought their name back into the headlines. And so when you're sitting at home and you maybe have the news on, or you're reading a, an article or something, and you just see Publishers Clearing House and you're not really paying attention to it, but then someone calls you and says, hey, this is what's happening to Publishers Clearing House. We were going through the records and actually found out that you were one of the prize winners that never got your prize, or whatever their pitch is, you think, oh, I, I did hear something about that on the news. This must be correlated then.

[00:36:01] Bob: Let's talk about sweepstakes in general because I think this, this is a larger category of problems and people, they are selling a dream to people, right? So how, how big are sweepstakes scams in general?

[00:36:11] Amy Nofziger: They're huge. We, everything within the Helpline, we probably have 5 to 10, victims, and the dollar amounts are in the tens of thousands of dollars that they have had stolen from these in the name of having to pay taxes, shipping and handling, or whatever the criminal says that they have to do for their prize. They're devastating because these scams go on for some time too. These aren't just you get the call on Monday, you send your money, and then you realize on Tuesday that you're a victim. They can go on for years. Actually we've heard some, from some victims that these scams have gone on for years, because they just keep hanging you on and saying, oh, just one, one more prepaid gift card, and then the prize is coming. It's oh, just one more taxes and the prize is coming.

[00:36:58] Bob: A big part of Linda's story was her dream that she could fund charity work.

[00:37:04] Amy Nofziger: And that's why these criminals will ask you questions. And everybody wants to feel that someone's interested in their life. But the criminals are asking you these questions so then they can help create again whatever illusion they think is important to you. So for her, it's this legacy of, of charity, of helping out, and I know that the criminals exploited that. And I've heard from many victims where the exploitation came when they found out that maybe it was the grandparents who wanted to help support their grandkids going through college because they were never able to. Oh, Mr. Smith, this money, you're going to be able to help little Johnny go to his dream school and just think about it when he's getting that diploma, there's only one person he's going to be thinking about, and that's you. That's you. So right, they use what we want and the dreams we have and the legacies we want our lives to, to represent against you and they weaponize it.

[00:38:08] Bob: Another important part of Linda's story, the criminals weaponized secrecy.

[00:38:13] Amy Nofziger: But we are hearing from our victims more and more that every single criminal tells them, you cannot tell anybody this otherwise that the prize is going to go away, or you're going to have pay more, whatever it is. Or if someone asks you about it, tell them something else. No legitimate business sweepstakes company would ever ask you to lie or keep something a secret.

[00:38:41] Bob: This case, and in many cases, they told her, oh no, it's not a secret. You have to sign a non-disclosure agreement because it's an official thing, and that sounds more believable.

[00:38:51] Amy Nofziger: Yeah I, I think you're right. They might not ever call it a secret, but it's something to keep you quiet. Certainly if anyone who's asking I understand I'm out of the ether right now with asking you to sign a legal document, you would certainly want to have your lawyer check it over, or a friend check it over before you're signing any legal document. In this case, of course, it's a fake legal document, but that should raise a trigger in you that if this is so important, and this is so special that I have to sign this document, I'm going to need my attorney to look it over. And if then the prize sheriff or whatever they call themselves says, then you're going to lose your prize, okay, then I'm going to lose my prize, because again, no legitimate company would not want you to have a lawyer look over any legal document that you're signing, because it would protect them too.

[00:39:41] Bob: I think there are subtle other reasons that people are inclined to go along with this, well lying for example. And one of them is maybe the people around them aren't so good at hearing truth. If you're very close to your children, your adult children for example, and you talk about money all the time, it would be easier if something like this comes up, whereas if you have a kind of secretive relationship to begin with, I think you're more vulnerable to someone putting you in a situation where they say, don't tell your kids about this. Well what do you think?

[00:40:09] Amy Nofziger: I think this is just another tactic that the criminals use is they use that secrecy to almost push your truth-telling family away. Because the criminals, and we see this a lot in romance scams too, but the criminals will say to the target, to the victim is, the reason I'm telling you not to tell them this is 'cause then they're going to start fighting over the money because it's going to be their inheritance. And so we're just going to keep it hush-hush for now because we know that they're going to start fighting, and you don't want that. Or they'll say things like, they're probably not going to believe you and they're probably going to try to do something, but don't end up trying to get the money from me, so let's just keep it between you and I right now. Think about your boring, regular, daily life, right? From the time I woke up this morning at 6:15 to whatever time it is now, right, like how many times have I been asked to keep a secret or tell a lie? Zero, because that's not something that we do in our normal daily lives. We don’t lie, usually, and we don't keep secrets. And so think about that again. Put yourself in that position. When someone's asking you to lie and say, does this feel weird to me? Is this a new feeling for me? And again, that's a huge red flag.

[00:41:34] Bob: Amy had one new tip for involving other people when a caller suggest secrecy, using speakerphone.

[00:41:42] Amy Nofziger: But one of the, one of the things I started saying to, when I go out and do presentations and things like that is, if you are on the phone with someone you don't know and you're feeling like you're getting kind of caught up in this, put the phone on speaker. And I know that sounds simple, but that's welcoming the room that you're in into that conversation and that's when to her point maybe someone could help and intervene. And someone could say, this is a scam, right? Someone who's outside of that ether could hear that conversation. I'm a speakerphone person anyways, so my whole, and I hate having the phone next to my ear. So my whole house hears my conversations mostly anyways, but when you're in a scam situation like that, someone could come in and say, "Mom, hang up the phone. This is a scam," 'cause they could hear it.

[00:42:34] Bob: The tried and true advice we have for people is something we say all the time, but it's something very much worth repeating, don't answer unexpected phone calls. Just let them go to voicemail. Of course, life isn't always so cut and dried.

[00:42:49] Amy Nofziger: In theory yes, and I feel like it's so simple to say, don't pick up your phone unless you absolutely know who's calling. But, and I work in fraud and I pick up my phone somedays when I don't know who is calling, right? It's just, it's that moment of time. And so we, we try to pull people out on the journey. So if that works for you, great. But we know there's going to be people who are picking up their phones. So we've got to kind of move onto these next things. And what I like to say is that like every fraud, every scam has the same DNA, and so the things you really need to listen for, and the things you need to put yourself in position really and we'll just roleplay them out, did this come out of the blue and does it have urgency? So actually do this today when you get a phone call or a text message. You know did this text message come out of the blue or was I expecting it, and is there a little bit of urgency in it? And I guarantee you every single Publishers Clearing House scam, it comes out of the blue and they're like, you have to make this decision right now or we're going to the second prize winner. The other kind of I'd say red flags, but these are flashing neon signs. Are they trying to get you excited? Right, that was the whole thing we were talking about with the creating hopes and dreams. Are, are they getting emotional with you, either excitement or fear? So the sweepstakes one, they're getting you emotional with excitement. But some of the other scams it's fear, right, like you're going to be arrested, whatever it is. So are you literally feeling overwhelmed right now when you're on the phone? Are your palms sweaty? Is your heart racing? Are you shaking? Are you excited? That's a red flag, and what our victims tell us is they don't listen to that one. They push that one down. Don't say, I had a gut. The butterflies were going. My head was spinning. That's actually your body almost trying to get you back into the cognitive thinking. And then the biggest red flag, flashing neon sign of all, is they need money. They need money or personal information, right? So put yourself in that situation and think about it. If you're on the phone with someone and they're asking you for a prepaid gift card or directing you to a cryptocurrency ATM machine, like what is your actual response? What are you going to say to them, right, 'cause that will never happen. No one will direct you to a crypto ATM machine for you winning a sweepstakes.

[00:44:58] Bob: Meanwhile, even as the message seems to be getting through not to pick up the phone, well criminals have adapted and have a new approach.

[00:45:07] Amy Nofziger: Additionally, one thing that we are seeing that's a little new with the Publisher's Clearing House imposter scam is we're hearing from victims that they're actually getting a FaceTime call. And I think that's just a new manipulation tactic from the criminals to try to add credibility to this scam. Because we go out and we teach everyone, don't pick up calls from unknown numbers. Don't read text messages from unknown numbers. We never really added, don't pick up FaceTime calls from unknown numbers. And so they think, oh, someone's FaceTiming me, it must be important. So you pick up the FaceTime and then there's someone on the other end dressed very nicely, might even have a badge and a clipboard and a little bit of authority there saying, "Congratulations! You won a prize." And you think, oh, I see their face. This must be real. They're in an office. So that's one of the new trends we're seeing with it.

[00:45:57] Bob: And, and you know, I have to say based on just anecdotal experience, people answer FaceTime calls in the strangest circumstances, almost feel obligated to say yes to a FaceTime like at a busy coff—right? [A1] So maybe of new technology or whatnot, so they'll answer FaceTimes, they wouldn't answer phone calls.

[00:46:14] Amy Nofziger: Exactly. I don't, so we just have to start adding that to our education, right? It's if you get a FaceTime from an unknown number, do not pick it up. You have no idea who that person is.

[00:46:26] Bob: Also, just for pure privacy, my goodness, I never want to share where I am with people who I don't know. That's a terrible thing to do, it seems to me, a privacy sensitive person. If I turn on a camera in my house, I don't know what's on the wall or what piece of paper's on my desk, or who knows what someone could see and glean from a few seconds even of just seeing where I am right now. I think that's a terrible idea to answer a FaceTime, a video call from a random person.

[00:46:52] Amy Nofziger: I think that is, is very true, but I think we also are in this, whether it's a new horizon or new world, that not everyone thinks that way, Bob, right? There is a lot of people who are sharing a lot of personal things already on social media and so that wouldn't be their concern if someone saw a picture on their wall. I think just the bottom line for all of this is, you don't answer your front door to people you don't know, and you don't let them in your house, so just don't do the same thing on your device.

[00:47:24] Bob: That's, that's good, clear advice. So I read recently and I know this is an oversimplification, but it's another one of those I think really simple little guidelines. So once your pulse goes over 100 beats per minute, you can no longer think clearly. Now you're in this other place. And if, if we could just teach people what it feels like when your pulse is that high, and say, whatever is happening in my life right now, I'm taking a walk or something.

[00:47:49] Amy Nofziger: Yep. Yeah.

[00:47:49] Bob: Hit the eject button. I realize I am not normal and I need to go for a walk, which we all do in a lot of relationship situations. We all do it at work, right. So just recognize when you're, like you said, your body's telling you something and then hit the pause button.

[00:48:02] Amy Nofziger: Hit the pause button. And this is some--, I tell people this too, this is reactions that we have to honest things in our life. Like I remember my son one time came home from an overseas trip and was so sick, and we were at the urgent care, and they said you need to go to the emergency room right away. I literally started to shake, and they put a piece of paper in front of me, and my hand literally could not sign my name because I was in so much fear. That is my body saying, you probably shouldn't be signing a legal document right now if your hand is literally shaking so much. So again, listen to your body because it is trying to warn you. So take that walk, get a cup of coffee, pet your dog, whatever you need to do to calm you back down.

[00:48:46] Bob: It is so important to have a plan for a moment like this. What will you do if you're suddenly scared? Because it certainly can and does happen to anyone.

[00:48:58] Amy Nofziger: Every single one of us has a scam that we would be vulnerable for. And I am perfectly fine saying mine. It would have anything to do with my children. That is my vulnerability, right? So I dare you, scammers, try to do the scam for me, but we have to admit it, right? We have to admit it to ourselves. I talk about this a lot, like right now I would not be vulnerable to an employment scam because I'm employed. But all of the people who are unemployed, that would be a top vulnerability to them, so you have to kind of identify what your vulnerability would be.

[00:49:32] Bob: I think that's a really great point, and it's also, it's going to change based on your circumstances, right?

[00:49:36] Amy Nofziger: Absolutely. Your life stages.

[00:49:38] Bob: Yeah, if you just lost someone who you love, you're much more vulnerable to a romance scam. If you're suddenly worried about retirement, then you're going to be really vulnerable to people talking about money.

[00:49:46] Amy Nofziger: Yeah, if you're a grandparent, you're vulnerable for the grandparent scam. I am not...

[00:49:52] Bob: Not... yet.

[00:49:53] Amy Nofziger: ...a grandparent. (chuckles) I think one of the things we need to remember when we're listening to these stories and the stories of the victims is we can sit here in our, in our space and say that would never happen to me, but I have been in this position for 24 years, and we are busier than ever. So you might not think it's happening to you, but it's happening to a lot of people. So don't think it won't. Think it might and prepare yourself for the day that it might, and set up your, your arsenal. Protect yourself the same way we protect our house. We lock our door every night, we lock our windows, we turn on our alarm, we have the floodlights on. Think about that when it comes to your financial safety. Don't answer the phone calls. Have a call blocking app. Have a refusal script by your phone. Have a trusted contact. Put a credit freeze on your credit report. Set up your arsenal to protect yourself from these scams.

[00:50:56] Bob: We're talking about what individuals can do here, but what is it that society or government or any other larger entity should be doing to try to rein this in, do you think?

[00:51:06] Amy Nofziger: Well I think it's actually a lot. I think Publisher's Clearing House scams have been on the radar for law enforcement for a long time and I'm pleased every time I see a notification from whether the FBI or law enforcement that says they, they were able to arrest people and re--, you know, return even some of the money, which we know doesn't happen very much. I think the important thing is for people to just know that scams like this just don't go away. And let's just not move on to the next scam. Let's keep talking about this one. Sure, it might not be as fancy or it might not involve all the high tech stuff that people want to talk about when it comes to scams, but it's working and it's stealing millions of dollars from our friends and neighbors. And so we have to keep talking about it. And we have to keep encouraging people to report it, and you can report it to your local law enforcement, you can report it to IC3.gov. You can report it to us on the Helpline because that's how they're going to put these cases together and stop it. And most importantly, whether this is law enforcement or lawmakers, or just us as a general public, if anyone tells you that they were a victim of this scam lead every conversation with kindness and empathy, and just say, listen, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm not sure what the next steps are, but you know what, we'll figure it out together and I'll be there with you.

[00:52:29] Bob: Okay, since I have you on what other things are you guys hearing about at the call center that, that we should know about?

[00:52:35] Amy Nofziger: Right now, identity theft. Some of it could be high tech, but it's not really the high tech like data breaches or things like that. It is as simple as I don't know where people are having their wallets, but wallets are getting stolen left and right.

[00:52:50] Bob: Really?

[00:52:50] Amy Nofziger: Cars are getting broken into with very important papers out of the glove box. There's a lot of identity theft happening, and I think, again, sometimes we want to talk about the new and the latest scams, but these old ones work. And that's why they're staying popular. People, do a wallet audit. Pull your wallet out, pull your purse out. Go through it. Get out any credit card that you're not using. Is your Medicare card in there and you're not using it for the next three weeks, pull it out. Do not have your Social Security card in there. Military papers, divorce papers, marriage papers; I've heard it all. Pull that out of your wallet and keep it in a safe place. That one is really popular. So you don't need to carry a blank check in your wallet either. That's...

[00:53:33] Bob: Oh God, yeah.

[00:53:33] Amy Nofziger: That's some of the stuff that we've heard. Yeah.

[00:53:35] Bob: Yeah. Thanks for what you do, Amy, and thanks please, as always, give my thanks to all the volunteers that you work with.

[00:53:40] Amy Nofziger: We will. They listen to you. So they hear your thanks. So I appreciate that.

[00:53:46] Bob: For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:54:05] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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 [A1]This sounds cut off or unfinished thought. Maybe just cut it.