Friend Group Falls Victim to Large Job Scam

(MUSIC INTRO)

[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Tetris: She said, "We promote videos on social media with a click of a button, and it only takes about 20 minutes to do so.” And I was like, "How much does it pay doing this?" And then she said, "I'm VIP level 5, I net around $5000 a month.”

[00:00:18] Eunice Hovland: I was having nightmares that like somebody was like chasing us and somebody was telling us that they have gold and we were following them for gold and mining for gold. Then they disappeared on us. So I think it was like a warning, you know, my spirit was warning me.

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[00:00:38] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

[00:00:43] Bob: It's a dream for stay-at-home parents. Work from home a few hours a week on a flexible schedule and earn a little extra money for vacations and birthday parties, splurges. Eunice Hovland had spent a lot of time looking for just that kind of opportunity when it seemed the perfect thing had come along. So perfect Eunice gets her husband Daniel to sign up too, and then they invite dozens of friends to join in. But instead of helping pay some bills and buy some fun, Eunice and Daniel end up getting caught up in one of the internet's newest webs of crime. Daniel and Eunice live near Seattle. They moved to the Pacific Northwest from California a few years ago. Leaving friends behind was hard, but with the move Eunice ends up becoming friends again with someone she knew in childhood back in the Philippines. We'll get to that story in a moment. But first, here's Daniel.

[00:01:39] Bob: What made you move to Washington State?

[00:01:41] Daniel Hovland: A job opportunity.

[00:01:43] Bob: And what do you do?

[00:01:44] Daniel Hovland: So well before I was, the job offer was to work in dental cabinetry. And before that I was a finish carpenter for 20 years. It made sense to go into a niche market that required some high attention to detail.

[00:01:59] Bob: Moving into a niche market is a good idea because, well, there are a lot of mouths to feed.

[00:02:08] Bob: How many kids do you have?

[00:02:10] Eunice Hovland: Four.

[00:02:11] Bob: That's a handful.

[00:02:12] Eunice Hovland: Yeah.

[00:02:14] Bob: How old are they?

[00:02:15] Eunice Hovland: Honey's 2, Timothy is 4, Chas's 11, and Ryder is 19.

[00:02:20] Bob: Okay, that is, that's a lot to juggle all that. Wow.

[00:02:23] Eunice Hovland: Yeah. Ryder's really helpful.

[00:02:26] Bob: And you know what else would be helpful? More income. And that is what Eunice is looking for back in June 2025 when...

[00:02:36] Eunice Hovland: Oh, there was an advertisement on Facebook, and it was really interesting because it said to, you can stay home and that you don't need much experience, and it was just really like interesting for me because I have four kids and I wanted to raise my children while working.

[00:02:53] Bob: Eunice reaches out, and they get right back to her on WhatsApp.

[00:02:58] Bob: And what was, how did they describe the job?

[00:03:00] Eunice Hovland: They described it as promoting for influencers like clicking buttons to promote for them, like clicking likes and yeah, that would be a good thing for them because they'll get more exposure the more likes they get.

[00:03:16] Bob: Hmm, okay, and so this job is appealing because you can do this just in your spare time, whatever spare time you have, in your spare time at home, right?

[00:03:24] Eunice Hovland: Yeah. And it was like 20, like less than 10 minutes or something, and we just click on buttons. And it seemed so good.

[00:03:34] Bob: So Eunice signs up and soon she's using the company's app to get credit for her work.

[00:03:41] Bob: Okay, so you're on an app, and what sort of things are you liking?

[00:03:43] Eunice Hovland: Um, just like info, little, short videos of influencers, like cars and money and stuff like that. Like fun--, funny videos and fighting videos, different videos.

[00:03:53] Bob: The work is pretty easy, but at first, it doesn't pay very much, about $5 a day in credits goes into her account. But a manager promises that better pay is around the corner if Eunice invests a little money and involves others. But Eunice wants proof this is all working. She wants access to some of the money she's earned. Sure, the manager tells her, but the only way to make a withdrawal is to put in some upfront money. The manager wants $200 in crypto. And that doesn't make a lot of sense to Daniel, but eventually they take $200 out of the family budget, and he agrees to have Eunice invest it and lo and behold...

[00:04:37] Daniel Hovland: Lo and behold, a few days after I gave it to her, she gave it back to me, and I was like, "So where did you get this?" And "I told you, it's from the app. I made the withdrawal and it came through." And I was like, I'm like, "Okay, alright and good for you. If you keep doing that and you can start earning some money now."

[00:04:53] Bob: And in fact, during the next several weeks, she's able to get back much more than that $200 investment, enough that she can start paying bills with the cash.

[00:05:04] Bob: And what did that feel like?

[00:05:05] Eunice Hovland: It felt good. I was finally helping my husband with finances and stuff because it's been a hard time, and it was just nice to be able to pay for things around the house, like the bills and just help out and stuff, you know, while staying at home.

[00:05:20] Bob: There was a birthday coming up, right?

[00:05:21] Eunice Hovland: That's right. Our daughter's birthday was in September. So we were trying to save up for her birthday party. We had it at the Children’s Discovery Museum in Bellvue.

[00:05:29] Bob: Oh yeah.

[00:05:30] Eunice Hovland: It was nice and we had a big cake and stuff and we invited her family and stuff. It was really fun.

[00:05:39] Bob: Daniel can’t help but notice. And he decides he wants in on the fun too.

[00:05:44] Daniel Hovland: Yeah it was after she was paying for some bills around the house and then she actually bought the cake and paid for the, secured the deposit for the children’s museum. And other things like that, that’s when I was like, I took a really hard look.

[00:05:59] Bob: That really hard look includes doing some research into the company.

[00:06:05] Daniel Hovland: I looked up their articles of incorporation and it was a Canadian business. And then of course, I went to the, the Canadian business website, like their government website. I then searched the name of the company, and it was in good standing for five years, and it corresponded to what they were saying on the WhatsApp platform, that they've only been around five years, and the company really didn't take off until the last couple of years. And I, so of course, I went and dug into quarterly reports and found that everything that they were saying was legitimate.

[00:06:34] Bob: Since everything seems to check out, Daniel decides to jump in with both feet, and that means leveling up.

[00:06:43] Bob: Can you explain to me what leveling up means?

[00:06:44] Eunice Hovland: Yeah. They have a tier system, like VIP 1, VIP 2, VIP 3, all the way up to 10 or something.

[00:06:53] Daniel Hovland: So the, each tier, so I just do a little breakdown. It's like at VIP 0, you can earn 50 cents per task, right? The tasks are to click the like, you know, the videos, like the videos. And at that zero level, you can only do 10 tasks, right? And so you're only earning $5 a day, and so it would take a month basically to earn 200 bucks, right?

[00:07:17] Bob: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:18] Daniel Hovland: And that's how she got the first bit of money. And then at the next level, it basically, it doubles. It's like you get a dollar per task, and you can do 12 tasks. And then the next level up, it's 25 tasks first for a dollar, and then 58 tasks. As you go each level, you're basically doubling the number of tasks that you can do. And then when it gets down into, like, the five, six, and seven, they double the income as well, so you're getting $2 per task for 15 tasks, and so you're exponentially earning more income per day.

[00:07:47] Bob: So you my quick math says you went from the chance to make $5 a day to the chance to make 250 bucks a day.

[00:07:53] Daniel Hovland: Yes.

[00:07:55] Bob: So when Daniel gets in, he levels up both of them. That costs several thousand dollars, but…

[00:08:03] Daniel Hovland: And that way we're both at this level, earning basically about $1,700 each.

[00:08:09] Bob: $1,700 a..

[00:08:10] Daniel Hovland: A month, yeah.

[00:08:11] Bob: Okay. Yeah.

[00:08:12] Daniel Hovland: So that was that first level.

[00:08:14] Bob: Daniel and Eunice make back their investment within a few weeks, and now they're paying bills and having fun with their earnings. And their manager says there's a way to increase their earnings even more.

[00:08:28] Bob: At some point, it makes sense for you to recruit some other people to get involved, right?

[00:08:32] Eunice Hovland: Yeah, 'cause we wanted all of us to go on vacation. We had a whole plan. We made a dream board and everything, and we just had this whole idea of living a good life with our family and friends, going on vacation with our family and friends.

[00:08:45] Bob: Yeah, sure. And did, you would get a percentage of the money that they earned, like a MLM style, is that right?

[00:08:51] Eunice Hovland: Um, I think so.

[00:08:52] Daniel Hovland: It's very similar to multi-level marketing, yeah.

[00:08:54] Bob: It's, there's a down line of some kind, right?

[00:08:57] Daniel Hovland: That's correct. Yes. There is team income, yeah.

[00:09:01] Bob: And Daniel knows just where to go to set up his team.

[00:09:07] Daniel Hovland: I had been in network marketing companies before, actually four or five of them, and I immediately called everybody that I knew in those, in that industry, and told them all about this, and they were like... And I was like, "Look, I have evidence that this is a real thing. They've been paying us consistently for weeks and weeks now." And my wife, she, I said, she's been, they've been paying her for months. I just got in 'cause she's been doing it.

[00:09:31] Bob: And Eunice knows who to call, too, her mom friends. One of the first people she reaches out to is a mom we're calling Tetris in this story. I hinted at her earlier.

[00:09:42] Tetris: (child's voice)

[00:09:43] Bob: Oh, we have a special guest?

[00:09:44] Tetris: Sorry about that.

[00:09:45] Bob: That's okay. How many kids do you have?

[00:09:49] Tetris: I have one.

[00:09:50] Bob: Okay, that's enough, yeah. (chuckles)

[00:09:52] Tetris: That is enough, right.

[00:09:55] Bob: Eunice knew Tetris, who asked that her identity be withheld, back in the Philippines when they were both little.

[00:10:03] Tetris: We knew each other as kids, but the thing is like I don't remember. But she does remember me, so that's what's important. And then how that came to be is that her mom and my mom are good friends, so back when they were in the Philippines, they would like always be together and hang out.

[00:10:20] Bob: So when they both end up in Seattle many years later in 2023, Tetris reaches out to Eunice.

[00:10:29] Tetris: I was like, "Hi, so our moms says we have to hang out, so I'm here." I showed up to one of her kid's birthdays, and then um, then we hit off. And she's like, "I remember you from my childhood." I'm like, "I don't remember you. I'm sorry."

[00:10:43] Bob: (laughs) That's, that's adorable though. Are you basically the same age?

[00:10:47] Tetris: Uh, yes, I believe, I think I'm just like about a year or two years younger than she is.

[00:10:53] Bob: Ah, that might be why she remembers you, I was thinking that.

[00:10:55] Tetris: Right.

[00:10:56] Bob: Yeah.

[00:10:58] Bob: So both moms with young kids in the US with family connections from back home, of course they become fast friends in Seattle, especially since Eunice could use some old, well new friends when she moves to Seattle. And in addition to sharing kids' parties and so on, they also share a quest for...

[00:11:17] Tetris: We're both stay-at-home moms, and we would just typically text each other every single day. "Hey girl, what's up? Okay, this is what's happening," or "Look at this meme," you know and laugh things out. Or like what the latest gossip is or whatever in the Filipino community. And then um, so talks or in conversations of looking for work, and how we just like at that moment, point in time in our lives, the work that we would like would be like something just at home, so we don't have to steal time away from our kids so that we'll still be able to manage the household.

[00:11:53] Bob: Yeah, sure. Because getting a job where you had to get childcare often doesn't even make sense, right?

[00:11:59] Tetris: Exactly. Because like childcare here is like I don't know, $2500, and that's already your whole paycheck, so it's like you're working to pay someone to take care of your kid. So you might as well take care of your kid yourself.

[00:12:14] Bob: And one day Eunice mentions she's found the perfect job.

[00:12:19] Tetris: The thing is when she did message me, it was very casual. It sounded like, "Guess what I found!" "Oh what did you find?" "I found this new job, and it's going to help us." I'm like, "No way! Okay, let's go."

[00:12:32] Bob: Here's a bit of that text chat.

[00:12:35] Tetris: We were just saying to each other, "Oh, did I miss you, I miss you?" And then she said, "Hey, you know, if you're looking for income, it's something that we can do for free, and it's easy to do." And I'm like, "Whoa, what is it?" I said, "Ooh, what is this, love?" And "What's the work or job about?"

[00:12:51] Bob: Well I'm now wondering how did she describe the opportunity?

[00:12:54] Tetris: She said, "We promote videos on social media with a click of a button, and it only takes about 20 minutes to do so. We'll be social media content promotional marketers." And I was like, "How much does it pay doing this?" And then she said, "I'm VIP level 5, I net around $5000 a month. Dan just got his VIP-6 today, so he gets about $9000 a month from this platform alone, and that's not including our side jobs." And I said, "What? That's crazy. So how many hours a day do you guys work?" And then she goes, "10 to 20 minutes. You should sign up too." In that same conversation I did ask, "And you've already withdrawn $5000?" And then she said, "Yep."

[00:13:36] Bob: Tetris is interested, but...

[00:13:40] Bob: You must have been excited. $5000 a month for 20 or 30 minutes of work a day, that sounds exciting.

[00:13:45] Tetris: No. Because I was a bit skeptical. I was $5000 a month? Oh, and then only 20 minutes? Crazy. But I was like, well, if they're doing it, then, and they're receiving anything, then there's, there's nothing wrong for me to try. And then I was thinking, I'm not, as she mentioned, I don't have to put in money yet. She said I could start with VIP-0. So I said I was just going to try it out first and see where I'm at.

[00:14:13] Bob: So Tetris sits on the sidelines toying with the software for a few weeks earning a couple of bucks, but meanwhile, she's talking with Eunice and...

[00:14:23] Tetris: Yeah, so I saw that Eunice and Daniel, they were withdrawing, they invited more people who were also withdrawing money. I saw that they were able to pay bills, and I saw Eunice and Daniel have a nice vacation for the first time in a long time. Yeah, in those moments I was like, I felt like I was missing out.

[00:14:49] Bob: Missing out. And that makes Tetris really want to ... level up.

[00:14:55] Tetris: And I really wanted to join in the month of September, but I didn't have funds. I'm a stay-at-home mom, so where am I going to get the funds, right? So I was, I was building the funds for the moment that I do join. And that it's a lot of work here in the US, I have to, I got into Uber and then I was saving up money, and then I was talking to some banks, and I was letting them know that I was going to take out a personal loan, and the days leading up to the time that I was already granted the personal loan and could use that money, that was what I was doing for that whole month of September.

[00:15:32] Bob: Meanwhile, Daniel and Eunice are having a lot of success signing up others for this job opportunity. So much success that...

[00:15:40] Bob: So certainly you were able to quit your job, right?

[00:15:43] Daniel Hovland: Yes, that's correct. It was basically in October. So early October I was like, I'm, we have double the income, like double my work income, 'cause my wife was at the same level as me and then like we're already withdrawing the money and seeing $10,000 checks come in, and it was like or paydays rather sorry, not checks, but and so it was like the first time that we cashed out and had like a 8- to $10,000 withdrawal come back into our account. It was just like, wow, this is, this is amazing. I can't believe I could just do these simple tasks for 20 minutes a day and I can spend the rest of my day with my family and my children, and I get to go drop them off to school and spend time with them when they get off and be there to pick them up. And I was like it was like a dream come true.

[00:16:27] Bob: This is life changing, right?

[00:16:29] Daniel Hovland: Yeah, definitely. And then looking at the numbers and doing the math, it was like in less than a year I could basically making as much as a doctor.

[00:16:37] Bob: And Eunice has big dreams too.

[00:16:40] Bob: Can you just share with me some of the other things you dreamed about when you were getting this, enjoying this income?

[00:16:45] Eunice Hovland: I just, we really wanted to go on vacation. We wanted to go to Paris, and we were planning our kids' future and their, their schools and stuff. And we were going to try to get them in that expensive Christian school and stuff, and we were also helping a pastor in Pakistan. He didn't have any money. And he has an orphanage.

[00:17:06] Bob: And thanks to their network of friends, it feels like these dreams will indeed come true.

[00:17:13] Daniel Hovland: So we, just between my wife and I, I think we got about 20 to 25 people involved. But our team was like over 100 people because those 25 went out and grabbed their friends and family and then...

[00:17:27] Bob: Other people.

[00:17:27] Daniel Hovland: ... it went down the line. And so it went really fast because they started receiving like our first 20 to 25 people started receiving money and they're like, "Yeah, you're right, this is awesome. This is like the easiest thing I've ever had to do."

[00:17:41] Bob: Easy and more and more lucrative. By October, Daniel is able to withdraw $18,000.

[00:17:51] Daniel Hovland: And that was from a single month.

[00:17:53] Bob: Wow.

[00:17:53] Daniel Hovland: Yeah.

[00:17:54] Bob: That's, I mean how does that compare to what your income was before?

[00:17:57] Daniel Hovland: I mean it's like four times, so it was like...

[00:18:00] Bob: Wow. Yeah.

[00:18:01] Daniel Hovland: Yeah.

[00:18:02] Bob: That month the income is bolstered because some of the people in their downline are able to enter the company at very high levels.

[00:18:10] Daniel Hovland: It's like there was a VIP-10 level was like a $200,000 buy in, but you can earn basically a quarter a million per month. And some of our friends that had, that were much more well off, and they bought into it because they told me, oh they invested the, almost million and a half. So...

[00:18:29] Bob: A million and a half dollars, wow.

[00:18:30] Daniel Hovland: Yeah.

[00:18:30] Daniel Hovland: Yeah, like I said, it was a 200,000 buy-in and he bought, like I said, it was him, his brother, his wife, and his two kids. So, I was like, yeah.

[00:18:39] Bob: Meanwhile, Tetris, watching all this from the sidelines, well she decides to take a leap of faith too.

[00:18:45] Tetris: And I think one of the other factors that kind of urged and pushed me to actually lock in that I was going to invest in this, was like Daniel leaving his day job. So he left his like his actual work for this, to do this full-time.

[00:19:08] Bob: That's a huge endorsement, right?

[00:19:10] Tetris: It is a huge endorsement. And so when I told that to my husband, he says, "Wow, no way." I'm like, "Yeah, way." (chuckles)

[00:19:19] Bob: By October 10th or whatnot, you were ready to jump in.

[00:19:19] Tetris: Exactly.

[00:19:23] Bob: So how money did you put in?

[00:19:25] Tetris: I would say $11,000, but that's because it was a split. I had the decision whether to have, make one account and bump myself up to VIP-7 or something like that or make two accounts, one for me and one for my husband, and that I chose the second route because the intention was, I wanted my husband to retire early. I wanted to be the breadwinner for our family. I even told him, "Are you ready to be a stay-at-home dad?" I was so excited. My, just like Eunice, our intentions were good and...

[00:20:01] Bob: And you had big dreams.

[00:20:03] Tetris: We did have, or I did. I had big dreams, or at least I just wanted to like rake in some money, set aside some savings, set some money in my, for my son's custodial ROTH or his 529, pay off whatever debts we have, or had. And yeah.

[00:20:26] Bob: And I know your, your son is young, but he has big dreams, right?

[00:20:29] Tetris: Yeah, 100%. He wants to be an astronaut, so that's another thing, like I researched how, what it takes to be an astronaut. He has to be like a master diver, he has to have master’s in science, I think, and he has to have like X amount of flight hours as a pilot. Like those are really expensive horses. So I'm like okay, we'll have to start now.

[00:20:53] Bob: But in and around all this clicking and liking and earning money, and those big dreams, well Eunice has some disturbing dreams too.

[00:21:03] Eunice Hovland: So a lot of weird things like that were happening to us, like physically and spiritually as well. I was having weird dreams that like, like negative dreams like nightmares, you know. So I was having nightmares that like somebody was like chasing us and somebody was telling us that they have gold and we were following them for gold and mining for gold. Then they disappeared on us. So I think it was like a warning, you know, my spirit was warning me.

[00:21:27] Bob: But, for now, the dreams outweigh the nightmares. Tetris is doing well too. In a week the app says she's earned $2000 and, in a month, she's up to $25,000. She's more than doubled her money. So she tries to take out some of those earnings.

[00:21:48] Tetris: So I initiated the withdrawal on, I think that was like the 30th, yeah. On the 30th or the 28th, by the end of the month. And then I was expecting it like first week of November, obviously, like the following Monday or the following Tuesday.

[00:22:06] Bob: But this time something goes wrong. Tuesday comes and goes and Tetris' withdrawal doesn't go through.

[00:22:13] Tetris: I brought it up, and then all of a sudden everyone gets a notification that there was, there's going to be like a, an app update. And the app update is to integrate AI into the app so that the withdrawal duration would be cut in half, 'cause like instead of waiting 48 days, we could get the money in, in minutes or hours or something like that. And then..

[00:22:47] Bob: And then everyone on the team gets some form of warning that withdrawals will be delayed. There are murmurs about a bigger problem though. Messages start flying around their chat group, and as a few days go by...

[00:23:01] Tetris: There were family members or close family friends who were already really upset, and already skeptical about it.

[00:23:07] Bob: Daniel and Eunice suddenly have an angry team on their hands, and they can't get access to their own money.

[00:23:15] Daniel Hovland: It was late October that one of the withdrawals didn't go through. It didn't cash out, and it was like 20 something thousand dollars. Like I think like $27,000. And that was like my next step up. So when it didn't withdraw, it was like, of course, the website crashed and then everybody started panicking in our whole team, and then there was like, oh my gosh, is this it? And then, then we kept on texting the manager and going like, "What's going on?" Like...

[00:23:43] Bob: What's going on is about to make everyone even angrier.

[00:23:49] Daniel Hovland: And the manager outright said, "I'm done with all of you guys. You guys are fired." She like said that in the group chat to my team, and then everybody's like, "What? What do you mean by that?"

[00:23:58] Tetris: Our manager, so she goes, "Alright, I'm firing all of you." (chuckles)

[00:24:04] Bob: I'm firing all of you?

[00:24:06] Tetris: Yeah, firing all of us.

[00:24:07] Bob: Oh my God.

[00:24:07] Tetris: Out of the blue. (chuckles)

[00:24:10] Bob: Wow.

[00:24:12] Daniel Hovland: Yeah, so that was the last words that she actually wrote in the chat box.

[00:24:17] Bob: I'm firing all of you, she says, and disappears. And there is no way to initiate withdrawals anymore. The chatroom discussion is frantic as everyone begins to imagine the worst. Daniel does some more research and finds out that the business license in Canada he found for the company, well its name and information was being impersonated by these criminals. It's now obvious to everyone, no one is getting any more money. It's a full-blown nightmare.

[00:24:47] Bob: So when you get that message, you're fired, and at that point, you're like, oh gosh, this is a scam. How does that feel?

[00:24:53] Tetris: It like finally set in. I was like, shoot, I lost X amount of money, and now I have to pay that money back.

[00:25:00] Yeah, you wasted all this time Uber-ing, right, all that, and sure...

[00:25:04] Bob: With all the money going out and coming in, the accounting is tricky, but the bottom line is Daniel and Eunice faced a crushing financial blow.

[00:25:14] Bob: In the end, how much did you guys put into it?

[00:25:17] Daniel Hovland: I think it was like $33,000, like basically all of our kid's college funds, and all of the, basically all of our savings and we put the last bit of money that we had into it so, and borrowed some money from my mom, it was like $6,000 to make up the difference. So it was like, yeah, so...

[00:25:36] Bob: So it was almost $40,000 in the end, is that about right?

[00:25:38] Daniel Hovland: Yeah, if you include loan, yeah.

[00:25:40] Bob: And some of the people on their 100-person team had far more stolen.

[00:25:47] Daniel Hovland: Yeah, all together between everyone, it was probably about two million dollars.

[00:25:52] Bob: Two million dollars. And it all started with $5 a day, 50 cents a task.

[00:26:01] Bob: Is there a way to put into words how much this impacted your financial situation, Daniel.

[00:26:04] Daniel Hovland: I mean it was devastating. Like I said, right after everything, after I knew that we got scammed I was, I just didn't even want to, I didn't even want to talk to the world for a few days.

[00:26:14] Bob: Yeah, sure.

[00:26:14] Daniel Hovland: It was like, I just had to wrap my brain around what's the next step? I real--, like we, it's almost Christmas and we can't even pay the rent. You know like...

[00:26:22] Eunice Hovland: It was right before my birthday.

[00:26:24] Daniel Hovland: Yeah. Yeah, it was the end of November and her birthday is November 27, so, and then like I said after we couldn't make, like I said, that month was paid for but December was not and so when December rolled around, I was like I don't know how we're going to pay the rent. We don't, I don't have a job and yeah, we were, it was definitely the most difficult Christmas for our family we've ever had.

[00:26:44] Bob: Eunice, how did it feel to you when this all came crashing down?

[00:26:46] Eunice Hovland: Oh, it was depressing. We were crying at home for two weeks straight because it was just horrible. Like right before my birthday. I was like, dang, I, I should have listened because I really feel like that dream that I had was my warning sign from God or something. Because I really felt that way because it was like really obvious the mining thing and the gold missing. I thought, I felt like that was his warning to me and I should have listened to that dream.

[00:27:12] Bob: And they have to deal with the fallout from getting their friends involved with this company.

[00:27:17] Bob: What happened to the friends and family that you connected to this? Did they understand when you explained what happened, Eunice?

[00:27:23] Eunice Hovland: Um, some of them did, thank God, but there's also a couple people that are not talking to me right now. They're pissed at me and I feel so bad, so I don't know what to do. I just want to say sorry to them as well because I didn't know either and if I would have known, I would handled it differently but it's just, it's just really horrible.

[00:27:45] Bob: Yeah of course, yeah.

[00:27:46] Bob: Daniel, what about you? Did you have that experience?

[00:27:48] Daniel Hovland: Yeah, what was messed up is that some, a lot of the people that I reached out to were people that were struggling, and I saw something, saw a way that can put them into a better situation. And it just feels terrible that like I said, these are friends and family that I love and care about and it put them in a worse situation because a lot of them had to take a loan in order to try and get this. And some of them got the loans from I don't, like those check cashing places that give short-term loans and stuff like that you have to pay an arm and a leg if you don't pay it back immediately. And like there was multiple situations like that.

[00:28:27] Bob: Tetris, who had $11,000 stolen from her and now has a bank loan to repay, she doesn't blame Daniel and Eunice.

[00:28:35] Tetris: I knew from the get-go that her intentions was for all of us to succeed in life. That's number one. And number two, that's just really my personality, like if there may be factors that could encourage me to do something, but at the end of the day it's my actions that got me there. It's not like they threated me at gunpoint or knifepoint to put money into this company or this scam. It was me. It was my decision, it was my decision to build up my funds. It was my decision to get into Uber-ing so that in case it was a scam, I still have like a safety net to fall back on to be able to pay the bank back. It was my decision to invest in, create two accounts and invest in those two accounts. And yeah, that's how I just, that's how I really am. And my actions and words that I put out in the world are because of me and myself and not because that because other people or other things have forced me to do it.

[00:29:40] Bob: I, that's just really admirable and especially given that other people were saying hurtful things to them, right?

[00:29:45] Tetris: Yeah, they were, and like I was a little surprised too.

[00:29:48] Bob: What kind of things were people saying to them?

[00:29:50] Tetris: I think the one that struck or stayed with me the most is like when a close friend of hers called her like delusional or something like that. And I did reach out to her and I said, you're fine. We're all at fault here. And you had the best intentions for everyone. And it, and it's not, and it wasn't like they benefitted from anything either. They were scammed too. And they have a big family.

[00:30:16] Bob: Daniel and Eunice are still working to recover from it all.

[00:30:21] Daniel Hovland: We're still climbing out to the whole... after everything happened it was a struggle trying to find another job. So I was unemployed for a number of months then I finally got a job offer to be a school bus driver. So I trained for eight weeks to do that. And then I only drove for about four months and then now that company that I was working for lost a good percentage of the contracts for Seattle School District, and so they had to lay off 300 people. And, of course, being so new to the company I was included in that. So it's like I'm basically unemployed again and, and having to look for another job. So I'm currently training though to be a law enforcement officer because I was inspired to do something to try and fight the just the pure chaos that's happening in our society today. It's like there's so many scams out there and there's so many people that just think that they can steal from one another.

[00:31:18] Bob: Yeah. So Eunice, what is it you want people to remember when they hear your story? What do you want them to learn from it?

[00:31:24] Eunice Hovland: I just don't want it to happen to anyone. And if it does, just report it because the more we report it like the quicker we report it the better they can, chances are that they can get caught. So we just want those guys to get caught and that this doesn't happen to anyone else. This is just a horrible situation. Americans shouldn't have to go through this. And we should just live happily and we don't want that to happen to our worst enemies. We just want everyone to live in peace and we just don't want any negativity going around like that. That was just traumatizing. That was like really traumatizing.

[00:31:55] Bob: Daniel, what do you want people to remember after hearing your story?

[00:31:57] Daniel Hovland: Just to be cautious especially if there's any type of get rich quick... there, there's an old saying that's if it looks too good to be true then it probably is and to remember to go with your gut. My initial gut feeling was it's a scam, we shouldn't get involved with that, and probably should have listened to that. You know your intuition is much more powerful than you think.

[00:32:18] Bob: And crime can be more powerful than you think.

[00:32:22] Daniel Hovland: One of my friends is actually really savvy in the crypto world and he was able to actually look up the backtrack that particular wallet and look at like how much money there was in there. And it was like 300 million dollars in that account and so...

[00:32:35] Bob: Oh my God.

[00:32:38] Bob: There's no way to know for sure, but since $2 million was stolen from their team, it's not unreasonable to guess that $300 million or more was stolen by these criminals from various teams in this gigantic task scam. They are such a powerful combination of crime techniques, job scams, gamification, Ponzi schemes that we wanted to make sure and talk about the larger trend and how serious it is. To help with that today we have Patty Hsue here, a lawyer with the Federal Trade Commission, she is Chief of Staff of the Division of Marketing Practices, and does a lot of work around fraud. And she says the FTC has seen a lot of tasks scam fraud lately.

[00:33:23] Patty Hsue: We actually issued a data spotlight, I want to say in December of 2024, highlighting this new trend. The story you shared with us exemplifies where you have a consumer who comes across either an advertisement or maybe they get an unexpected WhatsApp message or text message offering them a job opportunity to do repetitive tasks. Usually it's something along the lines of liking videos or promoting videos, something along those lines. And we've actually seen a pretty significant increase in the number of reports about this specific type of scam, and what's really interesting, what, this is what we've noticed in our 2024 data, is that older adults have actually been increasing the number of reports about this type of scam specifically. I think it went up about 300% in 2024 compared to 2023.

[00:34:13] Bob: And that compared to essential zero complaints back in the year 2000. What makes tasks scams such a fast-growing crime?

[00:34:22] Patty Hsue: I think it's the idea that you can earn some money on the side with doing something fairly minimal, right. I think a lot of people in this day and age are looking for ways to earn some extra income, and when you see something along these lines where it seems relatively simple, I'm just like liking some videos or rating some product images, it seems like it's something that you can do on the side, it's something you can do at home, and doesn't involve a lot of expenditure of effort on your part. And I think something like that seems, can be very attractive to folks. And a lot of times they lure you in because people think they're earning commissions. They even might have a fake platform where you can see that your earnings are being, adding up overtime. Eventually what ends up happening is you are basically told at some point that you have to deposit money in order to get your money back out, out of the system.

[00:35:09] Bob: You know I am pretty shocked at how elaborate this scam is. These criminals have software that operates and seems to work. It's more than a fake cover for a fake webpage or something. I mean it's very, very elaborate, right?

[00:35:22] Patty Hsue: You know a lot of these scams are becoming more and more elaborate, that's just the reality of where we're at. So for investment scams, job scams, a lot of times they're building these really fake, elaborate platforms that really look real, and they really look genuine but they, they really are just a cover. There's really nothing behind them. And it's very hard for a consumer to tell the difference between what's a real platform and what's not.

[00:35:45] Bob: So what was really different about this story, this tasks scam, is that at least some of the people, at least the folks who I interviewed who were the tip of the spear of this group of maybe a few dozen victims, they actually got money. They were able to transfer cryptocurrency out and pay for vacations, pay for rent, and so even, I, I talked to one of their sort of follow-on group victims who was skeptical at first, but then after a month or two they see this person actually making money doing this, and that's when they jumped in. They thought it was real. Which to me made it feel more like a Ponzi scheme than just a tasks scam. Is, is, that's brand new to me. Is that something you've seen?

[00:36:23] Patty Hsue: You know I don't think that's something that we've seen in the data specifically, but the idea of a Ponzi scheme or an idea of an online scheme like that is not new. What we have seen over time as scammers progress, is that they start merging different sort of techniques together. So it really doesn't surprise me that this is happening.

[00:36:42] Bob: In addition to paying early investors with money from more recent investors, the hallmark of a Ponzi scam, this scam also invites investors to involve friends and family to create a downline which sounds like a multi-level marketing program.

[00:36:58] Bob: Could I get you to explain to listeners what an MLM is, what things to look for in general if you're trying to decide if one of those is legitimate or not?

[00:37:07] Patty Hsue: So an MLM is typically when people sell their products person-to-person, I think, is the hallmark of an MLM. It's usually a multilevel marketing scheme, where you can do direct marketing through multiple levels and sometimes it could be called networking marketing as well. A lot of times you can make money either by selling products directly or you can make money by recruiting others to sell and you earn commissions based on their sales. And MLMs are an interesting sort of business model, and I would say for consumers who are looking for legitimate money-making opportunities, a lot of times whether it's an MLM or if it's a, a standard sort of business of coaching opportunity or an investment opportunity, there are a couple of key hallmarks that people should focus on and pay attention to. The first is, if they are making extravagant promises about your earning potential, that likely is going to be a scam. Very often you cannot guarantee large returns or large money-making opportunities or quick, easy ways to make money. For MLMs specifically, if they are emphasizing recruiting, that's another thing to, to focus on and think about walking away. So the difference between what we call a legitimate MLM and a pyramid scheme is in a pyramid scheme you primarily make your funds by recruiting other people to sell the product as opposed to a legitimate MLM where you can make money by selling a product directly and you don't need to recruit in order to make money. So if you come across an opportunity where they're really emphasizing the recruit--, recruiting, we generally say, take a second look, maybe walk away.

[00:38:38] Bob: And here's a point we want to make loud and clear. Getting paid to write fake reviews or logging fake likes, that's not a job. In fact, it can be illegal.

[00:38:50] Patty Hsue: One thing I would say for tasks scams specifically is if they are trying to get you to pay you to like something or to rate something, or to provide what we call a fake review, that's definitely a red flag. So, writing fake reviews is actually illegal, and a legitimate business will never ask you to do that. So if in any sort of scenario somebody's asking you to fake a review of a product or like something that you haven't actually come to a conclusion on your own, that would be a red flag to, to watch out for.

[00:39:16] Bob: You know I am so glad you said that. I think Facebook sometimes calls this inauthentic, right. Any time somebody's saying give an opinion on something that you don't have an opinion on and they're going to pay you, that should strike you as wrong to begin with, I think, right?

[00:39:28] Patty Hsue: Yeah, definitely. I think any time that somebody's trying to pay you to write a review, is, is something to pay attention to and to be wary of.

[00:39:36] Bob: And forgive me, I'm not an FTC lawyer, but doesn't, in the FTC's endorsement rule, doesn't that specifically make it illegal to, to not disclose that you're being paid to review something?

[00:39:45] Patty Hsue: It sure does. It also bans fake reviews, and it also bans companies from buying reviews, whether they're positive reviews or negative reviews. So this is why we say, if somebody's trying to pay for your opinion, you should definitely take a pause, because a legitimate business shouldn't be doing that.

[00:40:01] Bob: Since I had Patty on the line, I wanted to ask her what other kinds of scams are creating the most complaints at the FTC.

[00:40:09] Patty Hsue: One thing that we are really focusing on at the FTC right now is impersonation scams. The numbers are really just kind of skyrocketing and we're getting more and more reports of really high dollar losses. So the, one of the trends that we've been noticing that folks should be on the lookout for are what we call these hybrid scams where it might start off as a business imposter scam where they tell you there's a, an issue with you in an account, right. It could be a message from Microsoft, from the bank, or from some other well-known company like Amazon that you may interact with on a daily basis, and they might send you a message saying there's a security account issue with your account, and you need to call them right away to address it. And when you call them, inevitably it's going to be in a business imposter scam who then tries to tell you that you have to move your money to fix it, to protect your money, and they will transfer you to a government agent to help you with this particular problem. A lot of times they'll try to say that they're transferring you to a law enforcement agency such as the FTC or the FBI, and FTC impersonation scams are particularly high right now in terms of dollar losses and these are a lot of the reports that we're getting from the, from Consumer Sentinel, is that FTC Impersonation scams result in high-dollar losses. And one of the things I will really emphasize is that the pernicious aspect of this particular scam is they're telling you to move your money to protect it, which means a lot of times people are moving all of their money to protect it. It's not limited in any way to what the cost of a product or a service is. And we're talking about people's bank accounts, people's 401Ks, people's ROTH IRAs, so it's really like their life savings.

[00:41:44] Bob: Oh, it's devastating. Ugh.

[00:41:45] Patty Hsue: So I really want to emphasize government will never, ever tell you to move your money to protect it. We will never, ever tell you that you have to pay the government in particular payment methods, like in cryptocurrency or in gift cards, or in wire transfers, these, or even in cash. These are things that the government will never do. So we really want consumers to hear that message.

[00:42:06] Bob: And, and I mean I think the odds of the FTC even calling you or reaching out to you are, are really, really small, right? I mean it, it might happen in a sort of formal way if you're part of a settlement, right, but it really doesn't happen, right?

[00:42:17] Patty Hsue: That's correct. We really very rarely ever reach out to consumers. Usually, we might reach out in response to a Consumer Sentinel report that you might have filed, but for the most part you'll never hear from the FTC directly, especially to tell you to pay the FTC in some way. We will never do that.

[00:42:35] Bob: On the other hand, you can reach out to the FTC if you have a concern about a scam, and you should.

[00:42:42] Patty Hsue: If a consumer sees a scam out in the wild, please report it to the FTC. I cannot stress how much having these consumer reports about the frauds that they're seeing really helps us with our work, and that's true, whether or not you've lost money or you didn't lose money, right? We just want to hear about it. So I highly encourage folks to report to us, and that's at reportfraud@ftc.gov.

[00:43:02] Bob: Well, but if you're a victim--, if a listener's a victim of a crime, they should fill out a police report, but they should also go to your website and fill out something there, right?

[00:43:11] Patty Hsue: They should absolutely go to our website and fill it out there. Not only will you be alerting the FTC to the fact this crime has happened, you'll also be alerting other law enforcement agencies who have access to the FTC's database that the crime has happened. So we have, at the federal level, a lot of fellow law enforcement agencies have access to our database, and at the state and local levels, a lot of those law enforcement entities also have access to the consumers and all database, so it's, you're not just reporting to us, you're reporting to a lot of different law enforcement agencies.

[00:43:40] Bob: And I heard you say that even if you are not a victim of a crime, let's say someone solicits you, you chat to them for a moment or two and then you say, I'm out, this is a crime, you still want to hear from people when that happens.

[00:43:51] Patty Hsue: That is absolutely true. I think any information we have about what's affecting consumers is really helpful to our law enforcement mission. A lot of times we will hear from consumers who haven't specifically been harmed by a particular sort of crime, but we will, as we delve into the data, we'll inevitably find that a lot of consumers have been. And there's a lot of consumers out there who may not feel comfortable reporting to us if they did lose money. So even having those no money loss reports is what we call it, is really helpful for our law enforcement mission.

[00:44:25] Bob: So there you have it. A real task for you -- report those criminals. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:44:49] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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