How One Family Stopped a Crypto Romance Scam

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[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:05] Barry: He said, "I need $280,000." Both my wife and I gasped, and I said to him, "Brian, that's a lot of money." And I said, "I need to know a lot more about what's going on before I would even consider trying to get that kind of money together to give to you." At which time Brian said, "Well I need it by tomorrow."

[00:00:35] Brian: I hung up on my parents 'cause I knew I was not going to get any help from them, and I was feeling this panicked, hurry up, we've got to get this done, fix it type mode.

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[00:00:55] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:59] Bob: When someone you love is in the middle of a scam, what are you supposed to do? What are you supposed to say? It can be hard to know how to help. Well today's story involves a son and a late-night phone call with his parents that, well because of the grace of the parents, it stopped a nightmare in its tracks. Let's meet Brian, who lives in New York, and his dad, Barry, who's out West. The whole family has been in the business of helping other people for decades, but this time, they were able to help each other.

[00:01:33] Brian: Well actually I'm a PA. I started out as an EMT and Dad remembers when I joined the fire department, and I was a senior in high school, and that...

[00:01:45] Bob: It's such a calling.

[00:01:46] Brian: It was actually it goes back a little bit farther when my, when I couldn't play contact sports and I became the manager of the football team, basketball team, that's a long story on that part, but I became interested in taking care of people because I was in charge of a first aid kit when I was in high school and middle school.

[00:02:06] Barry: He has a desire to participate and assist beginning in middle school, and he was interested in sports, but he couldn't play sports. He always, he always got involved, and he tried to assist, and all of my children were like that. You know, my wife and I taught all, all of our children, one of their core values was uh, to be constructive citizens of their world and to give back to their communities. And they did that in a variety of ways whether it was assisting people themselves individually, or as a group helping out at the synagogue or the churches or giving to charity and making donations, yeah. And all of my kids did that.

[00:02:53] Bob: Meanwhile, Brian's parents, well they both worked in psychology.

[00:03:00] Barry: I am "retired" because I'm over 65. But not, not really. I have a doctorate in counseling psychology, and a specialization in adolescents and children, and a second specialization in aggression and violence. And most all of my career has been devoted to servicing at-risk youth, whether they be delinquent or on the precipice of being delinquent or disruptive or on some spectrum. I had the opportunities to work with a variety of young people and young adults.

[00:03:46] Bob: And neither of you picked easy careers, I can see.

[00:03:50] Brian: Not at all.

[00:03:51] Bob: And all those years of training, well they certainly helped when Brian went through a tough divorce a few years ago and finds himself in a new relationship.

[00:04:02] Brian: In May, the divorce was finalized. And I thought I was over the, the hump of all the tough and the challenges that were going on in my life at that time. And saw this as kind of a new start and then I was kind of just, had just moved out of my house and got a new place and seeing my daughter and all this other stuff, and then, and when July this time almost, yeah, it was three years ago yesterday, I was contacted by someone on LinkedIn by the name of Jessica Miller. And she was looking for friendship, and she was looking for education. And I knew that I was pretty lonely and thought it was, my luck has changed.

[00:04:49] Bob: Soon they're having more intimate chats on Telegram.

[00:04:54] Brian: It lasted for about a; you know about a week and a half or so - the getting to know you stage. And then before I knew it, I was enamored by this person.

[00:05:06] Bob: Enamored by this person and, well, the timing seems just right.

[00:05:12] Brian: But she said she was living in Toronto, and that she was going to be moving to New York, and that's why she was looking for friendship. It seemed like September of 2023 couldn't come soon enough, because that's when she was moving to New York.

[00:05:28] Bob: So you were interested too. What about her intrigued you, Brian?

[00:05:31] Brian: Just, just the attention.

[00:05:33] Bob: Yeah, filled a real need and she was coming to New York in a couple of months, right?

[00:05:37] Brian: Right.

[00:05:38] Bob: Yeah, so that's some perfect timing, right? Yeah.

[00:05:40] Brian: Right.

[00:05:41] Bob: Within a couple of weeks, she's professing strong feelings for him.

[00:05:47] Brian: We're going to be together, and I want to be with you, and I'm going to change from New York City and come up to where you are and I, yeah, and then it just went extremely quickly. And at the time, my feelings were like, she really likes me, I feel good about this, I feel great, better than I've ever felt in so many years.

[00:06:10] Bob: And things are going so well that Jessica introduces Brian to her family, well, to a family member anyway.

[00:06:18] Brian: She brings up the fact that she has an aunt by the name of Eileen.

[00:06:23] Bob: Eileen, we're withholding her last name, is a financial planner in New York City.

[00:06:29] Brian: And she asked me about cryptocurrency, how much did I know about it, and at the time I had a crypto account and was playing with it. I didn't know a lot about it. And then it turned into, "Well we have this investment opportunity for you." And... "The more money you put in, the more money you make and this what the 1% and the uh, people that invest all the time utilize to make money."

[00:06:55] Bob: Eileen tells Brian about a surefire way to invest in crypto and make big returns fast.

[00:07:03] Brian: And I put in initially $6000 or so that I had in the crypto, and I moved it in there, and then all of a sudden, it was making 1% a day.

[00:07:14] Bob: You thought you were kind of getting to know her family and this was an act of trust. I mean how were you feeling when you put that first $6000 in?

[00:07:20] Brian: Oh it was like, it was great, 'cause now I have an aunt that the aunt is a financial planner, and...

[00:07:25] Bob: Sure, it's all falling into place.

[00:07:27] Brian: Right.

[00:07:28] Bob: And it seems like it continues to fall into place during the next several weeks. As Brian keeps investing more and more cash and the returns grow and grow on that crypto service that Eileen has told him to use.

[00:07:40] Bob: And so how, how many of these transactions do you think you did over the next few months?

[00:07:45] Brian: So I had about three others, and they were pretty large-sized. One was 115,000...

[00:07:53] Bob: Oh wow.

[00:07:54] Bob: But he keeps seeing that balance grow, so he keeps putting in all the money he can. He even takes money out of his retirement account.

[00:08:04] Brian: So the big one, I then borrowed from my IRA, Rollover IRA, where all the jobs I've been working at, put into, and moved over, it was about 460,000. So now I'm up to 575, and there you have it. I was making $6000 a day.

[00:08:22] Bob: But that, that's more than half a million dollars. Is that basically all of the savings that you had?

[00:08:26] Brian: Yeah.

[00:08:28] Brian: But as the balance climbs, his new lover and his new financial advisor assure him he's facing little or no risk.

[00:08:36] Brian: I was told that that I'll be able to get that money back within 60 days to put it back, because I wasn't going to, you know I was saying, "Well I don't know about taking money out of my retirement. That's a lot of taxes and liability." They said, "Oh, no-no-no. We do this all the time." Or "People do this all the time. They borrow from their Rollover IRAs or their 401ks and they will get it back to you."

[00:08:58] Bob: And while he's put almost every penny he's saved in his life, more than half a million dollars into this investment, well the returns are amazing.

[00:09:08] Brian: I was up to 1.5 million, 1.75 million.

[00:09:13] Bob: At this point, Brian decides it's time to take some of that money out. But when he tries, the service blocks him. He's confused, so he turns to Eileen and Jessica...

[00:09:25] Brian: So I say they're not letting me do this. And they all say, "Oh, that's terrible. This is the first time this has ever happened. What are they saying?" And they said, "You have to contact the service desk."

[00:09:38] Bob: But the service desk has an alarming message.

[00:09:42] Brian: And then they say, "You owe, you need to pay 280,000, 260,000 more USDT to get your money out."

[00:09:50] Bob: And you don't have 260,000, right?

[00:09:52] Brian: I didn't have any of that.

[00:09:55] Bob: In order to take out the money, he has to pay a large sum of taxes and fees first.

[00:10:01] Brian: And that's, that was when they said, you, I said, "Well why don't you help? You give me some money or try to do that." And they said, "No, we're not going to do that. We can't."

[00:10:11] Bob: So Brian needs a lot of cash fast, and well he thinks he knows where he can go for help.

[00:10:18] Brian: So then in, and I said, "Well I'll take care of it." So I stopped chatting with them and that's when I contacted my mom and dad.

[00:10:26] Bob: That's when Brian reaches out to his parents. Barry remembers it well. The call was about three years ago, and sadly, Brian's mom has passed away since all this happened.

[00:10:38] Barry: It was 10 o'clock Mountain Time, which means it was midnight Eastern Time. And my wife and I were preparing to actually getting to bed to go to sleep for the night, and I said to my wife, "It's Brian calling." I said, "It's very late. He's, he's working tomorrow and like why is he calling at midnight?" And she said, "Well you won't know until you pick up the phone." So I picked up the phone. Sure enough, Brian was on the phone, and he started off as he usually does. "Hi, Dad, Mom. How are you doing?" And right away his voice did not sound very well, and I, I immediately said to him, "Brian, you sound oppressed. You almost sound stressed." And "What's going on?"

[00:11:38] Bob: What's going on? Well...

[00:11:42] Brian: I said, "Well, I'm, I need to talk about some money stuff because I need to get," it's interesting...

[00:11:50] Barry: What you really said to me, Brian, was, "I'm in a situation where I don't like to ask for money, but I really need to ask you and Mom to loan me some money." And that's when we got into the details of what kind of situation are you talking about? And Brian told us that he met this woman, woman in South Carolina.

[00:12:18] Bob: Met during a recent visit with his brother, who lives in South Carolina.

[00:12:23] Barry: I said, "Okay, but you said you needed money. How come?" And he said, "Well," and then Brian told us that he was in this situation where he put all of his savings, including his IRA and 401k, all into a Bitcoin account and it's locked, and he needs money to open up the account and get it out. And, and I, I said to him, "Okay, what are we talking about?" And he said, "I need $280,000." Well, well, well both my wife and I gasped, and I said to him, "Say that again? You said $280,000?" And he said, "Yes." And, and I wasn't all that calm at this point. Um, I, I wasn't angry, but I certainly was shocked and became very emphatic, and I said, "Brian, that's a lot of money." And I said, "I need to know a lot more about what's going on before I would even consider trying to get that kind of money together to give to you." At which time Brian said, "Well I need it by tomorrow."

[00:13:50] Bob: I need it by tomorrow. Well that escalates the intensity.

[00:13:55] Barry: Now this is 10 o'clock at night in New Mexico. Midnight on the East Coast. And I said to him, "First of all, Mommy and I don't have $280,000 just sitting around that I could just transfer into some account. And even if we did, I'm not inclined to give you $280,000. For what?"

[00:14:25] Bob: Brian doesn't quite know how to answer that question, and besides, he's in a hurry. So...

[00:14:32] Brian: I hung up on my parents 'cause I knew I was not going to get any help from them, and I was feeling this panicked, hurry up, we've got to get this done, fix it type mode that I get into sometimes, well anyway...

[00:14:47] Bob: The call ends. Brian starts thinking about where else he might get the money. Meanwhile, Barry and Joan can't sleep after all that.

[00:14:55] Brian: And Joan and I looked at each other and Joan said, "Well, he's a big boy, he hung up. And that, that's that." And I looked at Joan and I said, "Oh no, that isn't that." I said, "This doesn't sound very good, Joan. This is not just he fell in love with some woman and gave her some money that's locked in some Bitcoin account. Brian, I believe, is the subject of a scam, and that money is lost." I said, "No, we have to call him back." And I said, "You call him back."

[00:15:37] Bob: Barry has another plan.

[00:15:40] Barry: Joan got on the phone and spoke, as only she could with the children, and calm, started to calm him down a little bit, and asked him some very pointed questions about this relationship and how, uh, he met her in South Carolina and what kind of a woman she was. Tell me, as, as Joan always did with the kids, just probed. Joan also was a trained rehabilitation counselor. We were both licensed both in New York State and in New Mexico as Professional Clinical Mental Health Counselors. She was very skilled. And so she asked...

[00:16:25] Brian: It made a lot of fun growing up, Dad, I just want you to know.

[00:16:26] Barry: Yes...

[00:16:28] Brian: "Use your words, not a tantrum." I loved it. Actually it helps tremendously in my current career, both of them, yeah... anyway.

[00:16:34] Barry: So at any rate...

[00:16:36] Bob: And while Joan is calming Brian down, Barry is doing some more research.

[00:16:41] Barry: As she's talking to Brian, I whispered to her, "Keep Brian occupied. I'm calling Daniel," who is our middle son, who Brian visited the week before. And I did. It was now after 12 o'clock, and he's on the East Coast. I called his younger brother, and I said, "Daniel, I'm sorry to disturb you in the middle of the night, but we have a problem." And I told him, I said to him, "Tell me about this woman Brian met in, while he was visiting you last week." And Daniel, who is a military guy, he retired from the Air Force as a Lieutenant Colonel, so it's a no-nonsense guy, Daniel said, "What the hell are you talking about, Dad? Brian didn't meet any woman in, while he was visiting me. He was with us for all of the time he was in South Carolina. He never left the house." And then I said to him, "I'm going to call you back, but I really believe it's more than a gut level feeling now, I believe your brother is a victim of a scam."

[00:17:56] Bob: So Barry gets back on the call with Joan and Brian.

[00:18:00] Barry: And I say to Brian, "Brian, you told Mommy and me that you met this woman in South Carolina." He said, "Yes." I said, "You did not meet her. You did not leave your, I just got through talking with Dan and you didn't leave his house."

[00:18:20] Brian: Now I feel like I'm like 10 years old caught with my hand in the cookie jar.

[00:18:25] Barry: And that's when he hemmed and hawed and, and said, "Well I didn't physically meet her. I kinda met her on the internet." And now I'm calm. Okay, I'm not yelling or screaming at him, I'm calm, and I said, "Okay, Brian. Now you have to tell me a little bit more about these meetings." And that's when Brian went into detail that he met this woman, this woman then introduced him to her aunt who is a, owns her own finance house, and he said, "You can even see her webpage," and while he's talking and giving me the webpage, I go to the webpage, and I look at it and indeed, it looks like a very lucrative, very successful financial house. And I look at the webpage, and I see this nice, middle-aged, white or Caucasian woman who is the CEO and that's supposedly the aunt of the woman that Brian has fallen in love with.

[00:19:31] Bob: But as Brian keeps talking with his parents, his feelings about the new love affairs and his investments, well they start to change.

[00:19:41] Barry: It was a loving and caring, and we're concerned, and we're here to help you through this. So...

[00:19:49] Bob: As opposed to you did this, you did that, right?

[00:19:52] Brian: That's right. She said, "Tell me more about this, this Lee," and "Where does she live, and when is she coming to New York?" and "How do you feel about her?" And just, it just to get my defensiveness down; that's the, that was the key also was lowering that defensive feeling that you have to, you know, prove to everyone else that this is real, but when really in reality what it is, my mom was getting me to start to realize, and my dad too, that this is not real. This is not reality. We are here, we've always been here for you, we know you the best. It got to the point where I realized that this was not real. And my dad helped me make sure it was, it was real.

[00:20:41] Bob: So how long did that process take? Two minutes? An hour?

[00:20:45] Brian: Nah, it was about 20--, I'd say about 10, 15 minutes, if that. It's extremely important that the, that's was, that was the moment where I started to, I had to come back to my support network.

[00:21:03] Bob: And eventually, Brian comes to realize his money has been stolen. That New York City financial advisor, her identity had been stolen, and his love relationship, well there was no love relationship.

[00:21:18] Brian: And then after I was told, after my dad told me that, then I realized that it was a scam, that all my, and I believe the words I said to my dad was, and my mom, I said, "Oh my God, how am I going to make this money back?"

[00:21:36] Barry: "What am I going to do?"

[00:21:39] Bob: What am I going to do? It's an overwhelming moment. Fortunately, Mom and Dad are there for this moment.

[00:21:47] Brian: What am I going to do? I have taxes to pay now. I, everything started running, the realization hits you like a thunder cloud and you just get knocked back on your feet and you just, and it was at that point where my mom and dad took the time to say, "You will make this back, but you need to call the FBI."

[00:22:05] Bob: So he hangs with his parents and immediately calls for help.

[00:22:08] Brian: I knew which law enforcement to call because of my experience working in the field that I do as a firefighter and an EMT paramedic and all that stuff, and I called the FBI in the upstate New York area, and I talked to someone on the phone, and then they took my name and everything. They told me to call the Elder Abuse Hotline. And I was like, Elder Abuse Hotline? I'm only 52. What do I need them for? Well the person on the phone, the FBI agent I, there's always someone there, said, "You really need to call them." And that's when the emotions started to open up, I had to get into reality. And that's when the FBI agent came the next day. And he was fantastic. He took the time to educate me; he taught me don't give them any more money. And that weekend, this was a Friday, and then I actually called in from work the next day because I wasn't even in the mood to do my job, and that's when I spent calling the FTC and the SEC and the New York Attorney General's Office, the Secret Service, and all of them took this, it was like repeating the same story over and over again.

[00:23:23] Bob: The FBI tries to help, but for now at least there's no way to recover any of the stolen money. He does get relief from the IRS over some of the early withdrawal fees, but still, the total stolen from him is more than half a million dollars.

[00:23:39] Bob: So what does that do to your financial future?

[00:23:41] Brian: Well, my dad told me that night when I was woken up to this that I'm just going to have to work a little bit longer.

[00:23:48] Bob: The damage is more than financial, of course. But Brian is able to get support for the emotional tool the crime took on him.

[00:23:57] Brian: The Elder Abuse Hotline put me in touch with was uh, FightCybercrime.org, and that's when Kim called. She's the director of that organization, and, and helped me kind of focus on the emotions part and then I got enrolled in a course that it takes so long to get in there because there's such a need for what they do. You envision all this stuff, and your body, and your mind especially takes it and goes off into, this is going to really be true, and this is going to happen. So the scammers tap into this whole entire process of manipulation and grooming, 'cause then they brought the money into play. I, I was alone basically in this whole process. They get you to separate yourself from your family and you separate yourself from your friends so that they have full influence on, over you.

[00:24:52] Bob: Reconnecting with that support system with friends and family is a critical part of scam recovery. Barry has a message for those who might find themselves on the other end of a midnight phone call like this.

[00:25:05] Barry: My message is just really to uh, family of the people that have been scammed. And it is one of love and moderation. And by that, I mean the last thing that your family member needs is a lecture, or telling them how bad they are, or how stupid they were for doing what they were doing. That family members in these cases need to practice tough love. They need to be direct. They need to be supportive, they need to set limits, but at the same time, give messages of hope rather than hopelessness, and that messages of optimism, the glass is half full, not half empty, for every problem there's a solution, for every challenge there's an opportunity. And that even though it may feel like the end of the world, we are here as your family to make sure that you get through this but get through it with the loving support yet the prime finds of continuing to be a constructive citizen of the world.

[00:26:29] Bob: Brian is able to lean on his family, but he's also able to lean on that support group to deal with the emotional aftermath.

[00:26:38] Bob: What is it that you want people to hear and to learn from your story?

[00:26:42] Brian: As bad as it is, there are skills that all of us can learn. Because from learning comes empowerment, and that all hope is not lost. Yes, it's not, you have to go through a grieving process, you have to do the work, you have to learn new skills, you have to just you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep moving forward. If you learn the right tools and you learn the ways to think for a change and especially in this situation, post-traumatic growth is the opposite of post-traumatic stress. And what ends up happening is you learn these skills and you can, you'll never forget but you can forgive yourself and you can move on from this terrible experience but you learn from it and become better off in the end as bad as this situation was for me.

[00:27:43] Bob: You learn from it and you recover. And you can even be better off, growing through the experience, something Brian did with the help of professionals. And also, that's when some of Brian's EMT training clicks in. He decides he's going to help others understand how these criminals manipulate their victims.

[00:28:01] Brian: I had a mission. I was going to be a participant in my own rescue.

[00:28:06] Bob: Which is why he's talking to us, why he's done his own podcast explaining what happened to him and what he testified before FINRA, the Financial Regulator, not long ago. And he's talking about his experience with Dr. Jennifer Lawrence of FightCybercrime.org.

[00:28:23] Brian: There's a new program that's out there called Digital Betrayal Recovery Model; she has developed this program and a white paper to talk about how people can acquire these skills and move on. It's very similar to Alcoholics Anonymous or Gamblers Anonymous.

[00:28:43] Bob: I hope Brian's mention of Dr. Lawrence's work intrigues you because we have her here today too to talk to us about scams and recovery. She's a social worker at FightCybercrime.org.

[00:28:56] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: FightCybercrime.org is a, an incredible nonprofit. We're really focused on supporting victims of cybercrime, making sure they can access resources, they have step-by-step directions on how to protect themselves after a cybercrime. And we also provide a lot of information for friends and family in addition to our 10-week peer support group that we run for victims of romance scams and crypto fraud.

[00:29:19] Bob: It seems to me that most people will be surprised that an organization called FightCybercrime would have a social worker.

[00:29:26] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Yes, yeah, so we found that early on that it was important to have a clinician being in the space to support victims and survivors of this crime. We know that what comes along with this crime is not only financial devastation, but really a deep mental health impact as well. So the organization really wanted to make sure there was somebody there so we could give really just all-around care for victims in this way. By offering a pretty robust group, we have myself and another clinician in this space, and then we also have somebody from FightCybercrime.org giving information and education around cybercrime, how people can report, and where they can get additional resources.

[00:30:03] Bob: So just in, in general, why are people vulnerable to, to those kinds of crimes?

[00:30:08] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: People are vulnerable in a lot of different ways, right, for a lot of people involved in the crypto investment schemes, we know that there is a big draw with the financial piece, right. And these scammers are just so incredibly skilled at building platforms and websites and talking with people, really showing that they have expertise in that field. So people can be vulnerable in a number of different ways. First, a big part of the investment scheme are these scammers relying on people not having a lot of education and really just kind of going along and just trusting them almost implicitly, right, because they look professional, they sound professional. People see money in their crypto wallet or on the account platform. And so there's some truth bias within that, right, where we tend to believe people and systems just kind of in general, but when there is an added layer of, sometimes it's somebody feeling desperate to build a nest egg, sometimes it's somebody just wanting to show that they have the skill of investment. Other people are really putting money in investment towards the future, so when scammers kind of get a hold and they learn about people, they're very skilled at really just digging into people's lives and it's often in a very subtle way that people might not necessarily realize at first, right, somebody who's just making small talk, getting to know you, but then they're really using those pieces of information to manipulate you in the long run. So people can be vulnerable in a lot of different ways, especially when it comes to the crypto piece.

[00:31:31] Bob: But romance is often an important element of it, right?

[00:31:35] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Absolutely. Yeah, we're seeing a lot of crossover right now. Either a scam will start as a, kind of a peer romance scam, and then the scammer will be like, I care about you, I care about our future, I found this really incredible investment platform, right, or they have a family member maybe who's an investor and they can pull people in that way. And then other times we're seeing it start from the crypto investment side, purely as some sort of investor/mentor relationship. But then we see very quickly that the person ends up, I'll say "confessing feelings" for the victim, really just playing into everything that they're trying to build and why they're trying to build that investment. I would say vulnerability isn't a lack of intelligence. Again, it's that our brains are wired to trust relationships and just respond to emotion, and these scammers are really adept at manipulating emotions.

[00:32:21] Bob: You used the term "truth bias" a little while ago. Would you explain what that is?

[00:32:25] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Definitely. We know that scammers use a lot of behavioral psychology, and one of the most powerful psychological concepts at play is the truth bias. So that's really just our natural tendency to assume that other people are telling us the truth unless we have a very strong reason to believe otherwise. It's actually a pretty healthy trait in people. It allows us to build relationships, to work together, to function in society, but the problem is that the scammers exploit that instinct, right? They don't start with outrageous lies. They begin with small truths, with consistent communication, and with pretty believable details that gradually earn our trust. So then by the time that they're making the ask to invest in cryptocurrency, or to move money around, they're not asking a stranger, right. They're asking somebody who now feels familiar and credible, so victims aren't failing to detect the deception. Really, they're just relying on the same trust mechanisms that help us navigate everyday life.

[00:33:17] Bob: I think that's really fascinating. Society would break down if you didn't, for the most part, believe when you said, "Hey, is there a McDonald's around the corner?" And someone said, "Yeah, make two rights. It's right over there." If you didn't just take that at face value, most of the time life would be pretty hard, right?

[00:33:31] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Absolutely. Yeah, and it's unfortunate because these criminals, again, have really learned how to weaponize those human instincts. I always tell people when we do the education piece, like they have people like me, they have investors and bankers and criminal justice experts, all these people, you know, working on their side to really create and strengthen these schemes which is why we know how they're so successful in that.

[00:33:53] Bob: I wanted to talk with Dr. Lawrence about that late night phone call Brian had with his parents and why it was so successful. It all begins with a shift from talking at a victim to answering questions and listening, she says.

[00:34:08] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: That's, I would say, one of the main pieces that we talk with concerned friends or family or even providers about. The reason why his mother's approach was so effective is because she didn't try to prove her son wrong, right. She helped him feel safe enough to answer questions about what was happening. And really, he was able to lead himself to that conclusion, I imagine. When family members respond with anger and criticism, shame, right, statements like "How could you believe that?" Or "How could you have been so stupid?" "How could you have been so vulnerable or gullible?" A victim becomes much more defensive and really much more committed to the scam, right? When we're told something that's untrue, that we very much believe to be true, oftentimes we know that people will dig their heels in and really kind of double-down on what they believe. Accepting the truth means accepting a pretty significant emotional loss, not just a financial one, but often the financial loss is pretty significant as well, right. The son believed he had more than a million dollars waiting for him. In his mind the only thing standing between him and that money was another payment. The mother approached him with curiosity, with compassion, with questions, instead of judgment, so really that allowed him to lower his defenses, and also to give permission to really examine the evidence without feeling attacked. And again, we know from psychology that people are much more likely to change their mind when they feel like they don't have to defend themselves. So something I always think about is compassion isn't just a kinder approach, it's truly often the most effective intervention in these cases.

[00:35:39] Bob: Yeah, it's really interesting what you're saying. Tell me, what I'm taking from what you're saying is that even if I was with a gentle, thoughtful voice said, "Jen, that's a scam." Even that might be saying too much to someone who's in the middle of being a victim. Or what do you think?

[00:35:54] Dr. Jen Lawrence: Yeah, I always think the questions that people ask immediately upon finding out something's a scam, while they could be well-intentioned, while it could be with a kind tone, there is often a shameful component, right? When I do some trainings, I talk with people about just kind of our natural human instinct when we respond to somebody telling a story that is difficult for us to hear, when we're worried about somebody, when we're fearful for them, maybe their safety, again, maybe the financial piece and we might say, again, and I have the, all the compassion in the world for this person, but I say it, "But how could you have done this? How could you continue giving your money away like that?" What the victim hears is, you're foolish, you're naive, everything you've been working towards is gone, right, all those people are taking advantage of you. So again, the mother's approach was powerful because she didn't argue. She asked thoughtful questions. She stayed connected. And oftentimes it's true about preserving a relationship instead of making it a battle, right, when people feel respected rather than judged, they're so much more willing to reconsider what they believe. And so in many cases, the goal isn't to win an argument, it's really to leave the door open so they can continue walking through it when they're ready, right, continue answering questions, responding to them as compassionate as people can be.

[00:37:08] Bob: And you might not persuade them at the first try, right? Sometimes you have to keep trying.

[00:37:12] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Definitely. Something I tell friends and family members and providers is that it might take some pretty significant persistence on your part. I think that's one of the hardest realities for families is that we can't just persuade somebody out of a scam. Facts alone won't stop their behavior, I would say for the majority of people, right. Scammers spend weeks and months building trust. They isolate the victim in all sorts of ways, and they really prepare them to distrust anybody who questions the relationship or the investment. So they do a lot of work ahead of time. So by the time a loved one steps in, or the victim is reaching out to ask for help, oftentimes we're hearing stories like this that they need just a little bit more money to take out their big investment, right? So by the time that happens, the loved one isn't just competing with misinformation, they're really competing with an emotional bond in a very carefully constructive narrative. And so again, that's why pushing harder can sometimes backfire, right? The more a victim feels pressured, the more they defend the scam, again, not because they're irrational but their brain is really trying to protect something it believes is valuable. So a lot of the coaching that we do is saying instead of trying to win the conversation, it's really more effective just to be curious, to ask open-ended questions, and to truly keep the relationship intact. Oftentimes, it's not a one-time conversation, but by remaining a trusted, nonjudgmental presence, friends and family really do increase the chances that the victim will continue talking with them and continue kind of exploring some of the doubts that they have. And that's really often the turning point.

[00:38:41] Bob: Should I, if I'm a family member in this situation, should I just try to avoid saying, "I think that's a scam." Is that a bad idea to say that phrase?

[00:38:50] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: I don't think so. I think sometimes it depends on the relationship you have with the person, right? We have some people who come to our group, and they say, our family is, we have very blunt, very direct communication. So while I would often recommend not leading with, "Hey, this is a scam," especially if the person is deeply invested. If they're still under that influence, that statement again can immediately trigger defensiveness or shut down the conversation. But I do think that talking about asking open-ended questions, right? "Help me understand how this works." Or "What would happen if you didn't send the next payment?" Or, "Has anybody outside the company independently verified this platform?" Right? Helping them engage in their own critical thinking. But I do think there comes a point where you can say, "Here's what I'm understanding from you," right, and reflecting back what they've shared, and then being able to say, "Listen, I'm really concerned that this could be a scam." Right, sometimes we have friends or family say what worked for them was, "I found this information on Cybercrime.org." Or "I saw a news story or listened to a podcast and a lot of what you're telling me is really mirroring what I heard and what I understand." But then offering a path forward, right? "I'd love to explore this more with you," or "Would you be willing to sit down with me and maybe Dad or another person, to really take a look at what's going on here, because I'm worried, because it sounds a little suspicious or it sounds like a scam that I've heard of."

[00:40:11] Bob: Once a victim is through the acute phase of the scam, once Brian's parents persuaded him that he was a victim for example, well the real work of recovery begins. Support groups can be a big help.

[00:40:25] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Our peer support group is unique because we pair education, oftentimes around tactics of a scammer, the psychology behind a scam, why scammers are so effective at what they do. So we provide a lot of education which is a big piece of prevention. We know that the vast majority of victims come to us having experienced two or more scams. Oftentimes they've experienced something, what's called a recovery scam immediately after their original scam. So really, we want to make sure that we're preventing people from being revictimized in this way. So we do the education piece and then again, we pair that with the true peer support. And the peer support piece is so incredible because it's really sometimes the first place that some of these victims come and they can reflect back and say, I can't believe I'm not the only one who's experienced this. Or I didn't know other people went through this. And really just to hear their experience reflected and feel just incredibly validated. I would say to people, this is a place where you can truly believe that you will not be judged, right, because everybody has been something through this. It's really about helping people process the trauma. It helps people reduce shame, and that's a piece that often keeps victims isolated. And then we really do help rebuild their confidence after this type of crime. It is financially devastating, emotionally devastating. When we talk with people, you know, recovery isn't just get, getting money back because for the vast majority of people, a very hard reality is that they won't see restitution. They won't be made whole; they won't get probably any money back. So really, it's about helping people regain trust in themselves and systems and reconnect with their lives in a support system that is healthy. So really, the biggest part of our mission is making sure that nobody has to navigate cybercrime alone.

[00:42:06] Bob: I think some people might be surprised to hear the use of the word "trauma" in connection with being the victim of a cybercrime. Can you explain why you use that word and what it really means?

[00:42:16] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Definitely. The work that I do that I specialize in is trauma. That's what my background is clinically, and I think it's important for people to understand because, like you said, many people don't immediately think of a scam as a traumatic event, but for the victims, it absolutely is. Trauma isn't defined only by physical harm, it's really about experiencing an event that overwhelms your sense of safety, your sense of trust, and your sense of control. And a scam checks all three of those boxes. Victims realize they've been intentionally manipulated by somebody they trusted. They've lost money that represented probably years of work or retirement savings, and suddenly the world no longer feels predictable or safe. So what we see in victims of cybercrime are the exact same reactions we see with other traumatic experiences, with intrusive thoughts, difficulty sleeping, anxiety, depression, hypervigilance, difficulty trusting others, an overwhelming sense of shame, even up to suicidal ideation or suicide attempts. Some people replay every conversation in their mind wondering what they've missed. Others become afraid to answer the phones, open emails, even to leave the house to go to the grocery store or the bank because the world feels just so unsafe. Taking that basis, that's why we truly believe that recovery has to address more than the financial loss. We need to help people process the betrayal, to rebuild their confidence, and to truly restore a sense of safety in some way. Again the injury isn't just to somebody's bank account, right. It's not this, this kind of surface level injury that's happened. Again, it's truly to their ability to trust themselves and the world around them, and with the right support, we know that trust can be rebuilt.

[00:43:50] Bob: So is there anything unique or different about cybercrime trauma as compared to other kinds of traumas?

[00:43:57] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Cybercrime is unique because these criminals really borrow from domestic violence, from highly coercive relationships like we might see in cults or extremist religious groups. And they really capitalize on disenfranchised grief. So using my training in all of those pieces, it's a very interesting kind of mixture to bring all of those together. Again, these are things that trauma clinicians have worked with for decades, but what's unique about cybercrime is the way that the injuries are created and then the barriers victims face afterwards. Unlike other traumatic crimes, cybercrime often involves a deep relationship, right. So again, victims spend months building emotional connections with the offender before realizing they've been manipulated. They also experience a very unique kind of betrayal because the instincts that usually serve us well, again, trust, hope, generosity, wanting to help, those are the pieces of them that were exploited.

[00:44:53] Bob: But it's pretty darn hard to separate yourself from laptop computers and smartphones today, so that must make recovery harder in some ways.

[00:45:01] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: It does, definitely. And you know, because the peer support group we offer and our resources are on a digital platform, a lot of victims will say, "I just don't feel safe online anymore." And again, that's a normal reaction, it's something we try to normalize, right. After a scam, our brain is trying to protect ourselves by seeing potential threats just everywhere. Some people stop checking email, some people avoid online banking, others become afraid to answer the phone, right, because those pieces have become associated with this trauma and with this crime. So you're saying recovery isn't forcing yourself back online immediately, but it's about taking sometimes small, gradual, intentional steps to rebuild your confidence. We talk with people about securing their accounts, whether it's their bank account, whether it's their home internet, whether it's online social media platforms, changing their passwords, multi-factor authentication, working with trusted family members or professionals if needed, being able to re-engage with technology in very low-stress ways to build confidence, and with that practice, the goal is to teach our brain that while something very bad happened online, not every online interaction is dangerous. So we're trying to really, again, use other forms of treatment that we've used with other traumas, and adapt it to the bottom-line platform, because like you said, it's impossible. Everybody has some sort of internet access, internet footprint, often many people have technology at their fingertips with a smartphone, right? So even pieces like those, it's nearly impossible to avoid in this day and age. So really, how do people build confidence in getting back on those platforms is what we're trying to focus on.

[00:46:33] Bob: That, that sounds like such an uphill battle. For a lot of people, it's not an option to disconnect, right? Their jobs require it. And it's really hard to be a participant in life right now without using email or whatnot. Of course, we always tell people go cold turkey when they discover they've been communicating with a criminal, but then the ability to communicate with the criminal follows them everywhere they are, so that makes it very hard, I think, to go cold turkey. Is that your experience?

[00:46:55] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Definitely. And it really does feel like an uphill battle, right? Everybody's connected digitally. But I think too, unlike many other crimes, cybercrime victims often have to recover on multiple fronts at the same time, right? They're dealing with financial loss. They're dealing with emotional trauma, complicated reporting processes, which again, are all online. They're dealing with identity of privacy concerns, again judgment from people around them. Being able to get people to recovery services faster, getting them to credible internet sites like ours, to law enforcement. I would say the good news is that recovery is absolutely possible. We see it every day with our victims. I've watched people go from feeling completely hopeless and just saying, "I'll never be online again. I'll never touch the internet again," to realizing that's, again, pretty unrealistic in this day and age. But being able to take those small steps to build trust, being able to rebuild their confidence, to reconnect with loved ones and support systems, and truly to find their purpose again.

[00:47:52] Bob: Okay, so let's say someone's listening to this episode, and they have just become, or just realized they've become a victim of a scam. Where should they go to get help?

[00:48:03] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: They can start with FightCybercrime.org, absolutely. On our website we lay it out in a pretty accessible way where you can go on, you can search by your type of crime, and you can immediately get resources and immediate steps to take. For some people they might want to go to their local police department. For others, they might reach out to the Elder Fraud Hotline to start sharing their story and to get resources. I would say we're fortunate that there are pretty specific places like those where people can go to get initial support. Um, you know it just kind of depends on the situation. If somebody's ready to have a conversation on the phone or whether they want to start by looking up information from a trusted website where they can learn what they need to do to protect themselves and others moving forward.

[00:48:47] Bob: And how about a person who's listening who knows someone that they think is currently being the victim of a scam. Where should I direct someone in that situation to get information?

[00:48:59] Dr. Jennifer Lawrence: Similar resources; our website has a whole section for friends and family, both on how to talk with them, how to approach them with that empathy and curiosity and patience, to ask questions. Again, even if they aren't ready to hear you today, maintaining that relationship increases the chances they'll come back. We offer free educational resources, recovery information and support, both for victims and their families. Thinking about reporting if a friend or family member is able to sit with the victim and help them report. That's often much less daunting for a victim that somebody they trust is there to help support them through this. They can report to their local authority, law enforcement, the FBI's Internet Crime Complaint Center, the IC3 form, or any financial institution that was involved. If the person is struggling emotionally, making sure that they're having, or getting access to resources that can support them, whether it's a clinician, a therapist, a psychologist, even their doctor, or you know, depending on what they're going through, if they need to be seen for a crisis evaluation at an emergency room or using 988, the National Suicide Prevention Hotline.

[00:50:06] Bob: If you have been affected by a scam, the AARP Fraud Watch Network offers free, confidential discussion groups for victims of fraud and their loved ones. Learn more at aarp.org/victimsupport. And of course, you can always get help from AARP's Fraud Watch Network helpline by calling 877-908-3360. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:50:41] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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