$1.3 Million Fake Investigation Scam

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[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Larry Cook: When I get off the plane, again at Kennedy, I was alone. And I sat down and I wanted to make sure that Ryan was there, and when are we going to meet to put this to an end? I was panicked. When I couldn't get him, I didn't know what to do. I prayed. I tried to keep an even keel. But that immediate feeling was like I felt like you come home from vacation and everything in your house is gone. It was losing everything.

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[00:00:45] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:50] Bob: Anytime you get a letter or a call or an email or really any kind of message from a federal government agency, you'd probably sit up and take notice. Maybe you even get a little bit nervous thinking something's wrong. Well criminals know this and so-called government impersonation scams are growing fast. In August, the FCC issued a warning about them saying they're "one of the top reported fraud schemes." What makes them particularly insidious is in many cases the criminals forge ongoing relationships with victims and over time, steal huge amounts of money. That's what happened to today's guest who thought he was under investigation, and impersonators stole more than $1 million from him. Larry Cook, a retired pastor who still travels frequently to Kenya to work with orphans there, was about to move back to Pennsylvania when we talked so he and his wife, Barbara, can be close to the grandkids.

[00:01:45] Larry Cook: Yes, we've been married for 62 years.

[00:01:48] Bob: 62 years, which means you started dating when you were 5 years old, something like that?

[00:01:51] Larry Cook: We were very young, we were very young, yes. We got married when we were 21.

[00:01:58] Bob: Larry had a successful career in business, even rose to be a vice president.

[00:02:04] Larry Cook: I was the head of labor relations. I negotiated labor contracts.

[00:02:09] Bob: But by age 40, he felt a very different calling.

[00:02:14] Larry Cook: God called me into ministry, so we left that corporate life, and I had to go back to get some education school-wise, theology-wise, and became a pastor, and continued there 'till we retired.

[00:02:28] Bob: The couple were splitting their time between Florida and Maine when a minor annoyance crept into their lives that indirectly led to a major disaster.

[00:02:39] Larry Cook: My wife orders from Amazon periodically, not every day or every week, but periodically, and all of a sudden, our Amazon account kept telling us, redo your password, redo this. This is not accurate. And we were having all kinds of difficulties and finally I just said to Barb, I said, "Honey, why don't we just drop it, just don't use it anymore. We, we don't have to fight this," you know.

[00:03:06] Bob: And so they stopped ordering from Amazon and didn't think twice about it until a phone call arrives ironically one afternoon when they are shopping at Walmart.

[00:03:16] Larry Cook: Well we had a cart in front of us. I'm not sure what we had in it anymore. But it would be a typical visit to Walmart, and on the other end of the phone the person who called said that he was a security person from Amazon. And that wanted to clarify some things with Barb.

[00:03:39] Bob: But I'm just thinking already at that point you, maybe your wife's reaction is oh, thank God you're calling because my Amazon account wasn't working. Is that what happened?

[00:03:46] Larry Cook: Well, exactly right. That was the first reaction.

[00:03:50] Bob: But instead, the conversation quickly takes a serious turn.

[00:03:55] Larry Cook: He was asking Barb, have you purchased... and named four or five different cities in the US, to which she said, no, we've never been there, we never purchased there.

[00:04:08] Bob: And at this point Larry takes over the call, and then things get even more serious. The man on the phone says that Larry's personal information is all over the Dark Web, and criminals are using it.

[00:04:19] Larry Cook: And what scared me most was when they said that my, our card was used, and my name and my Social Security number.

[00:04:29] Bob: I'm just picturing how awkward it must be to carry on this kind of conversation in the middle of a Walmart.

[00:04:35] Larry Cook: Oh it was awful. I was in the middle of like an aisle leaning on one of those middle aisle displays.

[00:04:43] Bob: Oh yeah.

[00:04:45] Bob: So after a quick disturbing chat, they end the call, drive home, and call the agent back.

[00:04:51] Larry Cook: And as soon as we got home, he gave us instruction, "Do you have a laptop?" "Yes." "Open up your laptop." He gave me instruction as to a web page or a place and when I opened it up, that's when I saw the first introduction to what they said they were, or who they said they were. And that was that they were representatives of the Treasury Department, the US Treasury Department. And that was a new level.

[00:05:26] Bob: The man on the phone says that he's from a big government agency and Larry might be in big trouble.

[00:05:33] Larry Cook: And what he said was that we have been named in a federal case, criminal case for money laundering.

[00:05:44] Bob: Oh wow.

[00:05:45] Larry Cook: Because my name had been used in money laundering, and I said, "I have no idea what you're talking about." First of all, I wasn't sure exactly what that was. I had some view of it, but I didn't know what he was talking about. And he explained that they are ready to go to federal court. That my name has been associated with many things on the Dark Web that involve money laundering.

[00:06:12] Bob: Ready to go to federal court? For money laundering? Larry doesn't know what to think other than he thinks he needs a lawyer.

[00:06:20] Larry Cook: And I said, "Well, thank you. I'll hang up. I'll calling be calling my attorney." And they said, "Well wait, before you do that, let us explain why we're calling you. We normally wouldn't call you, but this is why. We would like you and your wife to be involved in helping us in an investigation. We have checked your background." I have no criminal background at all. I have nothing, arrests or anything, nothing like that. And he said that they have checked our background and we would be perfect for this investigation.

[00:06:56] Bob: Perfect for this investigation? What investigation?

[00:07:01] Larry Cook: And they said, "You would be representing the Treasury Department and the FTC. Federal Trade Commission that reports to the Treasury Department." So I said, "I don't know what, what, I don't know, what are we to do?" And they said, "Well, we are, we are investigating several things. One is we are investigating Bitcoin." And now I knew what Bitcoin was, I've never seen a Bitcoin, I've never been to a Bitcoin machine, I know nothing about it other than what I hear on TV or on the news. And I said, "Well, what can we do? We're not involved in those kinds of things."

[00:07:41] Bob: What can we do? Well, one thing participating in this investigation would do, the man says, is save Larry and Barbara a lot of money in court costs. A lot of money.

[00:07:53] Larry Cook: He said, "Well, you have the option of not being involved, but then you are going to court. I will tell you, you're going to federal court. And it's going to cost you 2--, 300,000 thousand dollars for attorney's fees and all the things that go with that because we have your name and your Social Security number, and identification."

[00:08:16] Bob: Larry's head is swirling, but this still doesn't sound like a good idea.

[00:08:22] Larry Cook: And so we said, "I'm sorry, we can't agree to that. Can you put it in writing?" They said, "Sure." So they sent me the letter telling me this and assigning us, if we would agree, assigning us a representative or who would represent FTC to, to us.

[00:08:43] Bob: If they agree, they'll avoid court, but there is one critical stipulation.

[00:08:50] Larry Cook: Now we, if we were going to agree, then we had to keep it totally confidential. Only Barb and I, no one else. No children, no pastors, no people from the church, nobody. And I said, "Well I'm not sure that we're going to agree." They said, "Well here's the option. If you do not agree, you are going to court, number one. Number two, if you do not agree, your children," and they knew we had two sons, but they said, "We will do a deep dive into their background including IRS and stuff." Now they have nothing to hide there. I have nothing to hide, but there was threats there that to disrupt their lives, and they said it could take years. "So if you'll just help us for a short period of time, we will give you authorization that you will not be indicted, you're not, you are representing the FTC."

[00:09:48] Bob: So they didn't just threaten you, they threatened your children.

[00:09:51] Larry Cook: Oh, they did. Oh there was no question. So Barb and I agreed. They signed it...

[00:09:58] Bob: Fearful of dragging their kids into all this, Larry and Barbara agree to work with the Feds, and right away, they're assigned an agent named Ryan. Ryan reaches out, steers Larry towards the chat app WhatsApp and asks...

[00:10:11] Larry Cook: "How much money do you have in your checking account?" And I told him. I'd said, we had about $10,000 at that time, but he said, "I want you to take that $10,000, take it out of the bank, write a check to yourself, however you need it, and take the $10,000, and I will make contact with you."

[00:10:35] Bob: So Larry gets the cash and then Ryan calls...

[00:10:39] Larry Cook: And he said, "Go in the gas station and go to the right, and you will see a Bitcoin machine, ATM machine." I had never seen one before, I had never been close to one before. "Okay, now you see what we need to do. We're investigating this very Bitcoin."

[00:10:56] Bob: So Larry gets in his car, finds the gas station, finds the Bitcoin machine, and Ryan tells him to insert the money into the machine, all $10,000 of that cash. And when that task is over, Larry drives home, Ryan reaches out again. This time he asks about Larry's savings accounts, and he tells Larry to withdraw more money, $50,000 this time, and to go back to that Bitcoin machine with it. It's the only way they can catch the criminals, Ryan says. Larry has questions.

[00:11:28] Larry Cook: "Well why are we doing, we, how are we getting this money back?" They said, "We have an accountant and we have a lawyer who will sit down with you at the end of this investigation. We're keeping track and you are too of all of the money that you are withdrawing." And so we did. And they said, "At the end we will give you a cashier's check plus interest plus expenses."

[00:11:54] Bob: That $50,000 request is the first of many. Soon Larry starts making regular visits to cryptocurrency machines all around the area and day after day, Ryan chats with Larry almost constantly.

[00:12:09] Larry Cook: Well, well Ryan, we would talk. I'd be riding along and he'd, he told me always keep the WhatsApp open even at night. I kept it 24 hours a day on my, next to my bed, open, because he wanted to know where I was and what I was doing, but not, I hope not everything, but I don't know what, why I had to keep it open. But early in the morning he would call me. "Well what's up today?" "Well, I've got a meeting, I've got to go here, there, or everywhere," and he would say, "Well, call me when you're free."

[00:12:46] Bob: Eventually the conversations drift away from their investigation into more personal matters.

[00:12:52] Larry Cook: Oh, we did. And we'd talk. He would say, "You and the Missus have a really great relationship." Because Barb talked to him a few times, would answer my phone or whatever and he would say, "I live in Washington, and it takes so long to get to work, and I'm working many hours. And I'm flying," he said, "I have a federal case tomorrow, and it could have been yours, Larry." He said it could have been yours. Well he said to me, "When this is done, maybe you can come to Washington, and you can meet with my wife and I. We have some issues I'd like to talk to you about, because you do," because I told him. I do marriage, and he asked me, "Do you do marriage counseling?" Of course I do. I pastored a big church outside of Philly and, and did a lot of counseling and marriages and all the rest.

[00:13:35] Bob: Larry grows to really trust Ryan, and so he goes to the bank week after week and keeps making on these huge withdrawals and often Larry's bank doesn't have enough cash on hand.

[00:13:48] Larry Cook: And then they said, "Well, we can't do it like on the spot. You've got to come back Thursday." Or whatever they would say.

[00:13:55] Bob: At one point they got to the, they have to go to a vault, right, and get $50,000 for you.

[00:14:01] Larry Cook: Yes, they did. They'd take me aside and they, I go into a side room and they'd have that counter, (sound effect) and they'd put it in a folder for me, like a plastic thing, that I could carry it out and didn't feel so obvious. But these are, these were $100 bills.

[00:14:17] Bob: What's it like to be carrying money like that out of a bank?

[00:14:19] Larry Cook: I have never, it is the most nerve-wracking thing. I have never touched that much money in terms of holding it.

[00:14:28] Bob: And then he would dutifully go to a crypto machine and deposit the cash.

[00:14:34] Bob: You're sitting on a stool or something just feeding into these machines for hours?

[00:14:38] Larry Cook: Oddly, they, they didn't even have stools there, sir.

[00:14:41] Bob: Oh God.

[00:14:42] Larry Cook: I had to stand in front of that and many of those were in bodegas that were really bad, particularly in Maine. And these are small little towns, and I will say this to anybody who asks me, I felt I was alone in those towns. They were nice, nobody threatened me, but I felt threatened because I was carrying under my armpit $50,000 at a time.

[00:15:08] Bob: That's crazy.

[00:15:10] Larry Cook: And I had to take pictures. Every withdrawal I made from the bank I took a picture and sent it to Ryan on my phone. So he had a copy, I had a copy. Every couple days he'd say, "Well let's review," and we'd review how much I withdrew and so on, until I didn't have any money in the bank, because I didn't have any money to begin with, you know, enough.

[00:15:36] Bob: And when the family bank accounts are fully empty...

[00:15:41] Larry Cook: So then they said, "Well you have retirement funds." And I said, "Yes, I do." And they said, "Can you get a hold of those?" I said, "I suppose, but why would I do that?" "Well, we need to take all of your money out of your accounts and put it into the Treasury account because we're going to be changing your Social Security number." I said, "Well so what are you telling me?" I remember saying this. "So are you recreating, do I change my name?" He said, "No, no. Just Social Security. No, nothing else, and we'll do that." And I said, "Well why don't you do that now? Just do it. I don't understand why I have to move the money around." He said, "Because it's part of the investigation of what has been happening in Bitcoin." So I went to my accounts and one by one, $50,000 at a time.

[00:16:35] Bob: And he does it again and again.

[00:16:39] Bob: How many of these coin deposits did you make do you think over the course of these months?

[00:16:43] Larry Cook: Thirty-one.

[00:16:44] Bob: Thirty-one. And they were all around $50,000 or so, something like that?

[00:16:47] Larry Cook: They were all around that area, 50 sometimes, but I, I visited 31.

[00:16:53] Bob: That sounds so exhausting.

[00:16:54] Larry Cook: Oh, it was. I can't tell you the impact this has had. Again, we're people of faith, so but you talk about a test of faith...

[00:17:05] Bob: But then Ryan decides the cycle of withdrawals and crypto deposits, well that's taking too long.

[00:17:12] Larry Cook: He says, "So what I want you to do, I want you to get as much as you can get out of the bank, transfer the money in there, get money out of the bank." $75,000 I believe was the most I got at any one time that they would give me without writing a cashier's check or something. And he didn't want that. He wanted the cash. So I went to my home. They said, "Put it in a shoebox. Put the money in a shoebox, take pictures of the money, take pictures of the withdrawal slips, wrap up the box, and I will call you because tonight an agent is coming to your driveway."

[00:17:51] Bob: Oh wow.

[00:17:53] Larry Cook: So they drove into my driveway, and he called me right before, he said, "I have your address up in Maine," and he had it down here too, but we were in Maine at this time, and he said, "What are you wearing?" I said, "A red hat." He said, "Okay. The agent will have a black car, a typical government car," he says. And he said, "I don't want you to talk to the agent. He will back into your driveway, he will, uh, put down the window on, not the driver's side, but on the passenger side. Just put the package in the back seat, turn and go into your home. You're safe. It's at night, we're watching you." So I did what he told me. I went out, put the money in there, $75,000. I did that, I think four times.

[00:18:43] Bob: But now you have an agent coming to your house. That seems like another disturbing thing.

[00:18:47] Larry Cook: Yeah, that's another level. They never came to the door, never entered, never asked to, but several times, Bob, he told me, Ryan told me, "Do not be concerned. We have agents in the area." Because we lived in a very rural area of Maine, a gorgeous area. But it's very rural and at night there are no lights. It's just a road, a nice road. And we live right on the road and right, right on the lake. So I was a little concerned about that when I traveled, that Barb would be there. So he said, "Oh no. We're watching. There is no problem. We have a female agent when you're not there."

[00:19:26] Bob: And there are several stretches when Larry's not there. Larry frequently travels to Kenya to check on charity projects there, and now that agents are stopping by his home, well it's even more alarming for him to be out of the country, but Ryan tries to ease his anxiety.

[00:19:42] Larry Cook: "You tell me where you are," meaning that you're leaving town. I went to Kenya twice during the six-month time where I'd be gone 10 days and didn't do anything during that time. And when I get back, he was right there. I mean as soon as I got off that plane, he was talking to me.

[00:20:01] Bob: And all the while, Larry and Barb genuinely believe they're helping.

[00:20:08] Larry Cook: Bob is, we are people, when, at least we have been, we are people, if the governor asked us to do something, it wasn't illegal or wrong, we would do it to help. We thought we were helping.

[00:20:21] Bob: Right.

[00:20:22] Larry Cook: So that might sound arrogant that a little pastor from, 82-year-old pastor can help the federal government, but we thought if we could help in little ways, and this stuff is going on, and we know people around us are being scammed.

[00:20:37] Bob: And at this point, Ryan switches to an even more dramatic way to move their money.

[00:20:43] Larry Cook: So then they say, "We've got to move this up." I'd say, "What does that mean?" "We are emailing you a trader for gold. And we'd like you to purchase gold." And so remember, I worked for Johnson Mathey, which was a precious metal company, so when they said, I, it didn't scare me. I got a hold of this company online, and I said, "I need so many ingots" or so many, it was a combination of coins and small pieces, but it was like $175,000. I wrote a check. I mean I; I was able to purchase it based on my credit card and my bank. And so we did that at least twice. I think it was twice, and both were picked up here by an agent right in my parking lot, right here outside my condo where I'm sitting right now.

[00:21:39] Bob: The gold is picked up in the same way as the shoeboxes full of cash, via courier. And after that second gold transfer, well basically, all the family retirement savings has been moved. In all, $1.3 million. Most of it money Larry had saved from his corporate life in his 20s and 30s. The couple have big plans to give away their nest egg.

[00:22:04] Larry Cook: It was our whole lives life savings. And our purpose was to, we have six grandchildren and we wanted to help each one of them when they get married, we'd give them a nice gift. We'd help them down payments, that's what we wanted.

[00:22:22] Bob: And there is one other place that money is slated to help. Kenya.

[00:22:28] Larry Cook: Half of it was to go to Kenya to open up another disadvantaged children's home for autistic children in Kenya, and our youngest, I should say, grandson has Down Syndrome.

[00:22:44] Bob: So Larry and Barb are anxious to get all this money back so they can continue to make plans. It's now almost the spring, about 6 months after all this started, and Ryan promises they are near the end. In fact, it'll all be over by the time Larry gets back from his next trip to Kenya, so Larry is thrilled as he packs for that trip. And Ryan says he has one last task for the couple.

[00:23:07] Larry Cook: He had us go to a place in Maine, and we spent hours with the last, now I call it, the last dump, into the Bitcoin. And we spent hours there, and the next morning I had to leave for Kenya on a direct flight from Kennedy to Nairobi. He knew about that. He said, "We'll protect Barb, don't you worry. We have a female agent in the area where she is. Don't worry about it." And I kept calling Barb anyway but regardless of this. And I was there two weeks. And my expectation was when we get off the plane, we're going to settle with Ryan, with the Treasury Department, and the FTC.

[00:23:50] Bob: So after a long trip and a long flight, Larry steps off the plane in New York expecting to see good news on his smartphone.

[00:23:57] Larry Cook: When I got off that plane, the first thing I did is I went to WhatsApp. And it was gone. The WhatsApp encrypted government was gone.

[00:24:08] Bob: Gone. Ryan is gone, the FTC is gone, the Treasury Department is gone.

[00:24:15] Larry Cook: I tried to call him, I used a different phone, I then the way I found out, I didn't tell anybody because I was so afraid. I was... oh I was, I can't remember being as fearful as I was at that moment.

[00:24:28] Bob: Ryan and his account on WhatsApp, well they both seem to have vaporized. Suddenly Larry starts to imagine the worst, but Ryan was a liar, and perhaps their money is also gone.

[00:24:43] Bob: I mean what is that like?

[00:24:44] Larry Cook: Well, let me say this. I, when I get off the plane, again at Kennedy, my son was there, and he didn't know anything and he went one way because he had to go to Pennsylvania, he was driving. I was going to Maine, so I was alone. And I sat down and I wanted to make sure that Ryan was there, and when are we going to meet to put this to an end? Because that whole trip was brutal, but I'll tell you, I was panicked. When I couldn't get him, I didn't know what to do. I prayed, I believe God showed me the right thing. I tried to keep an even keel. I didn't do anything strange or anything, but I did go home. And but that immediate feeling was like I felt like you come home from vacation and everything in your house is gone.

[00:25:40] Bob: He goes home and tells Barb what happened.

[00:25:44] Larry Cook: Well, she just cried. I mean during this whole six months, Barb was unreal, because she, if anyone, had more second thoughts than I did. And she would say, "Honey, are you sure this is right?" And I said, "I believe it is. We'd pray about it, God if it isn't right, shut the door. Get rid of this or do something but protect us through it if we're to be used this way." But we'd pray together, we'd cry together periodically, and we surely did then. It was more than crying, it was weeping, it was sim--, it wasn't, I don't want to make it more than it was, but it was wailing. It was losing everything.

[00:26:26] Bob: It was wailing. And Larry has no idea what to do. So he calls the Federal Trade Commission.

[00:26:35] Larry Cook: They have a hotline for fraud or scams, but they call it fraud I believe. And so I talked to, the woman answered. She was very nice. She said, "Look, before I do anything, you need to tell me your story." So it took me like an hour and a half to tell her the story. I gave every little detail. And at the end she says, "Sir, I have to tell you, this was a major fraud in your life. We would never do what you told me. You got calls from Treasury Department, FTC, investigators, money like that, we'd never, ever would involve somebody in an investigation who is not an officer of the FTC.

[00:27:24] Bob: With his worst fears confirmed, Larry decides to involve the rest of the family.

[00:27:30] Larry Cook: As soon as I called, next day, we got our kids together, our sons and their wives in Maine. We cried together. They, I didn't know what to do. They were, they said, "Dad, don't worry. Mom, we'll take care of you." But we lived in a home that was debt-free which was good because we recently had to sell it, that's why we're in Florida. We had to sell that home. We couldn't keep it going, and we wouldn't want, we didn't want to rely upon our children.

[00:27:59] Bob: And slowly, the reality of what happened starts to sink in. They go to the police. They talk to the FBI. There's a huge tax bill associated with liquidating their retirement fund. Larry and Barb said they'd get relief from that thanks to the intervention of Senator Susan Collins, but still the loss, the theft is enormous. Larry and Barb go to therapy to help process their grief.

[00:28:24] Larry Cook: Because they were able to get into everything we had. So that's the bottom line feeling, and honestly, I believe that as a result of that, I mean we're still dealing with it, Bob, we are. We did seek some counseling for us in terms of how to deal with the grief, because this is grief. If there's any reaction to it, it's grief, it's, but again, it's not so much grief of the money, but it's grief of being used the way we were used and thrown away.

[00:29:03] Bob: And to have that kind of relationship and then have the person vaporize, I mean, that's a terrible feeling too, right?

[00:29:07] Larry Cook: Oh it, yeah, it was. I wasn't sure I would ever you know go on vacation with him, but, or play golf or just something, but he was a nice man. And Barb would tell you the same thing because we still talk about him. Remember Ryan? And he had a good sense of humor.

[00:29:22] Bob: Wow.

[00:29:23] Larry Cook: These people are top level whatever you want to call them. Frauds.

[00:29:28] Bob: Manipulators, I mean they certainly are that.

[00:29:30] Larry Cook: Manipulators. They are, they have a PhD. That's what the FBI told me. These people, you're dealing--, you dealt with, they have a PhD in manipulation.

[00:29:39] Bob: Despite all the horror, Larry has an optimist's way of looking on the bright side.

[00:29:46] Larry Cook: I believe, and we believe together, that God has allowed us to tell this story without the feeling that somehow we're exposing the world that we're failures and we're no good and we're stupid and we're that. We're not. But this happened. And some ways, only God knows, but I think we have grown through it. Barb and I were just talking this morning about it, that I think we have grown through it. I mean we've been active and very active, and then God called me to ministry, and we've been active in ministry. So God's... has given us all that we need. So I have no regrets, and I have no problem telling the story at all.

[00:30:27] Bob: Well we are so grateful that you're willing to, because it's the most important thing that, that was can do it talk about this, because it's happening. It's so common. And when folks don't talk about it, that's, that's advantage to criminals, so thank you from the bottom of my heart for being willing to talk about it even though I know it's hard.

[00:30:44] Larry Cook: You're welcome. I'm fine, yeah.

[00:30:46] Bob: What do you want people to remember from hearing your story?

[00:30:50] Larry Cook: What I want them to remember is that there are some things in life that we just cannot control. There are evil people and evil people hurt good people and evil people, and sometimes we are the result of that. And I think it is wise that you know this in advance. For whatever reason I didn't know these things in advance, but knowing them in advance, please, I want people to know, please do not ignore them. So I think that's one thing. The second thing is, if you are scammed, do not ignore the result of the scam on your life. I don't care if it's $100, or, or like ours, 1.3, 1.4 million. It has an impact. And so there are great books, there are counselors. There's a book that Barb and I studied and still study periodically, it's called, "Complicated Grief." And boy isn't that true.

[00:32:01] Bob: Complicated grief. And complicated scams, these government impostor scams, which as we've said, are growing fast. So to talk more about why that is and what you can do to protect yourself and the people you love, we have Peter Lichtenberg here today. He's a Professor of Psychology and Gerontology at Wayne State University, and he's been researching this topic for decades.

[00:32:24] Peter Lichtenberg: I thought then the story was just heartbreaking. He said he tells Ryan he's going on a trip, and Ryan said, "Hey, we did it. And we're going to, we're going to get together and give you your money back. When you get back, we're going to celebrate this." And then when he gets back a WhatsApp no longer exists. But now the shame, the heartbreak, the panic, the fear, the devastation that a couple can feel after going through this. I, I applaud them for sharing the story, because I think it helps the healing.

[00:33:05] Bob: There are many factors which lay the groundwork for the story the criminals told.  

[00:33:11] Peter Lichtenberg: They were having problems ordering from Amazon, and I think somehow the scammers knew that. And when...

[00:33:17] Bob: Or sussed it out or whatever. That, to me, is absolutely crucial to this story.

[00:33:20] Peter Lichtenberg: Yeah, it is. Because it provides that first, like they've got a problem they're trying to solve, and here comes somebody to try to help them. Initially, right away, they're open to the communication with the person.

[00:33:35] Bob: And once the criminals saw that opening...

[00:33:38] Peter Lichtenberg: They then, the next thing that happened immediately was the induction of fear. Larry's Social Security number is on the Dark Web, and everything's in jeopardy. And can't you help us catch the criminals? You induce that fear and you really try to pull for an urgent, quick response of yes, sure, we'll help you. And, and Bob, that's another edition of the fear. So the first, they're going to lose all their money because of the Dark Web, and second, their sons are going to be dragged into this court battle, so that emotional response and the urgency of which to act...

[00:34:23] Bob: Fear isn't the only motivator in this story, however. Peter points out that many mature Americans feel a natural sense of duty to respect authority, and to help out their community when called upon. These criminals preyed on that too.

[00:34:37] Peter Lichtenberg: And this really played into kind of Larry's his whole profession as a pastor, and feeling his, this is his civic duty to do this. Trying to really take it upon himself to make a contribution to, to continue to contribute to the welfare of society.

[00:35:01] Bob: Fear and duty all together, that's a pretty powerful concoction, right?

[00:35:05] Peter Lichtenberg: Yes. Very powerful.

[00:35:08] Bob: Also powerful, the ongoing relationship with a specific criminal, in this case, a man who said his name was Ryan, and this secret mission.

[00:35:19] Peter Lichtenberg: Now don't tell anyone because this is a secret mission that we're on to take care of these problems with this bank. Those are just the ways that these criminals complete things. They've hooked you. The relationship's so strong. They make you feel like this guy's your best friend and you trust him totally so yeah, it sounds weird, but I'm going to do this because he's asking me to. And then the next thing that they did, which is becoming more and more common, they're not as interested in the hit and run scams, if you will, where they get somebody to respond to the grandchild needs 5,000. Send that. But they're really interested in these developing relationships. So this "agent" named Ryan plays a key part in this because he is, these criminals are very sophisticated in knowing how to build these relationships and get a commitment from the older victim to be into the relationship and into this helping that we talked about.

[00:36:31] Bob: I'm so glad you brought that up, because I do feel like that's, first of all, that's what new, and second of all, that's what's so incredibly damaging is, is it's not, well obviously it's terrible to go to a Bitcoin machine once and put money in there, but he went 30, 31, 32 different times over the course of half a year. So it's the ongoing relationship that makes this so expensive.

[00:36:51] Peter Lichtenberg: It does. And you can't dismiss that relationship. They really liked Ryan, they trusted him. I'm sure they had thought that he shared the same values that they have, the same kind of viewpoint towards life. That's what the scammers are so good at.

[00:37:11] Bob: The best antidote to this kind of sinister ongoing relationship with a criminal is other healthy relationships in your life, Peter says.

[00:37:20] Peter Lichtenberg: Ryan's very good at what he does. And money is tabu. Larry and Barbara, as far as I could tell, really didn't seek somebody out to get a second opinion, or a third opinion about this whole thing. And over 50%, or around 50% of every sample that we've gotten, whether it's a national sample or a local sample, say that at times at least they wish they had someone to talk to about their money and their financial decisions, and that's one of the things we really stress. You've got to have somebody to talk to.

[00:37:56] Bob: This is the trusted advocate issue, right?

[00:37:59] Peter Lichtenberg: It's the trusted advocate. It's the best friend. It's, it is when you're in something that's scary, that you don't quite understand, you've got to talk about it. And not just with somebody else who's in the same spot like Barbara would have been, but somebody outside. Somebody that's not emotionally tied to the situation.

[00:38:21] Bob: And who won't be judgey or leap to conclusions right away, right?

[00:38:24] Peter Lichtenberg: Exactly, who will not be judgey, who will just try to assist you and give you their input. That's why best friends are great for those kind of conversations, and/or a trusted advocate who's going to also be able to act on your behalf.

[00:38:38] Bob: One of the really interesting things I've heard you say is that folks who are isolated, feeling invisible, feeling lonely, that they need to take action to put themselves out there, to find an advocate, or to find social connection. Like you can't just wait around for it. It's up to each individual to take that leap. Can you talk about that?

[00:39:00] Peter Lichtenberg: Agency is important throughout our life course. We have to be the agents of our life. We can't just wait and expect that somebody else is going to meet those needs for us without us taking some risks, making some goals no matter how old we are, no matter what our situation is. There's, there are opportunities, but we have to put our foot out there.

[00:39:23] Bob: Can you give some suggestions as to how people can actively participate in finding these kinds of social connections?

[00:39:30] Peter Lichtenberg: Sure, one, one way is things that are important to you, and volunteering. We all have social needs that are pretty basic. We need affection. We need some level of status, so that declines over time. But we also need what, what's called behavioral confirmation. We need somebody else who appreciates what we're doing. Somebody else is saying essentially, what you do makes a difference. And that's part of purpose; it's part of giving back to the community. That's one thing, we can all do some things for it. But the other is, yeah, you like to read, join a book club. If you like music, join a listening group. There are all kinds of things. I think senior centers have gotten a bad name over the years as being limited in what they do, but they've changed dramatically. And they have all kinds of incredible programming. If you like to learn, there's all kinds of opportunities in the community for learning, whether it's formal, sitting in on a course at a university, or whether it's lectures, or whether it's some of these groups that do put on kind of informal courses.

[00:40:41] Bob: Senior centers are great. I've been in lots of them. They're often a fantastic, you know walking through the threshold for the first time can be very tricky, but after that, there's often so many great things going on.

[00:40:52] Peter Lichtenberg: Exactly. And I know that one of the things that happens as, as people get older, especially in a place like Detroit, for example with public transportation that's relatively smaller, that they, with their cutting down on driving, retiring from driving, they get isolated, and they feel stuck. But there are rideshare programs and other ways to really solve some of that community mobility issue.

[00:41:18] Bob: Well you like to drag in gigantic social problems into our conversations, don't you?

[00:41:23] Peter Lichtenberg: Yeah, it's all connected, unfortunately. It really is as to why is there a vulnerability.

[00:41:32] Bob: You move out to the suburbs so you have room for the grandkids, and then suddenly you can't get anywhere.

[00:41:37] Peter Lichtenberg: Yeah. Right.

[00:41:39] Bob: Peter spent 25 years directing Wayne State's Institute of Gerontology where he still works, so he's done a lot of research into scams and aging. And he's got some surprising insights. Here's one; we all want to protect our loved ones from criminals, so it's incredibly important to get involved and stay involved, but on the other hand, being overprotective can be just as bad.

[00:42:01] Peter Lichtenberg: Absolutely. Autonomy is such a cherished value by all of us throughout our entire life course. And older people are no different. They really cherish their autonomy. They want to make their independent decisions, for as long as they can. And if we take that away prematurely, it actually not only reduces the quality of their life, but some studies suggest it reduces the length of their life as well. And of course, the flip side is, if we don't protect people enough, terrible things can happen to them and all kinds of abuse. And we're talking about financial abuse today.

[00:42:38] Bob: I mean it makes a lot of sense to me that if you lose your ability to make your own decisions about small things, is life worth living anymore, right? And so the risk of shortening your life is there, but then the, the balancing act of we hear of horrible stories like on this podcast, and it makes us want to do more, right? So that seems like a really hard balance for people who are in caregiving positions. How do you strike that balance?

[00:43:00] Peter Lichtenberg: One of the things that we work at is improving the capacity assessment system and the capacity assessment tools because that's one way of resolving that tension between autonomy and protection, and with the capacity assessment, you really do see if people can or cannot make informed decisions about whatever it is that they're trying to decide on, and why that might be. So it helps you understand the conditions that maybe are leading to them being unable to make those informed decisions.

[00:43:34] Bob: So there's some kind of a, a test for this?

[00:43:37] Peter Lichtenberg: Yeah, it's a process. Our evaluations are usually about 2½ to 3 hours. It consists of interview, some financial decision-making assessment, as well as neuro-cognitive testing. So I have a background in geriatric neuropsychology, so I've been giving cognitive tests to older people for 40 years, and more than just a screening measure. So really testing more in depth all areas of cognitive functioning.

[00:44:06] Bob: Can you just tell me, just to give me an example of the kind of things you talk about during those tests?

[00:44:12] Peter Lichtenberg: Yeah, with the uh financial decision-making, often asking them about a specific decision or set of decisions they want to make. And then I'm asking them questions to get a sense of, do they really understand the financial aspects of this decision? And do they take into account or have an ability to communicate what the risk level is and how it might affect other people, so what some of the consequences might be. And we have a broader set of questions that, that really get at what we call the contextual parts of decision making. What kinds of financial strains or stresses or self-efficacy around finances do they have? How about psychological vulnerability around finances. Anxiety about finances. Depression, wishing they had people to talk to about their finances. And then issues of relationship strain, whether they feel like somebody's trying to take away their financial freedom, whether they're worried that somebody's trying to take away their money. So between the specific questions that get at the informed decision-making aspects and more of the general context, that we get a feel for kind of how secure, if you will, people are in the informed decision that they are making.

[00:45:32] Bob: So I spent decades writing personal finance stories for CNBC, and my opinion is that most people don't have informed financial decision-making to begin with. So that must be a challenge separating out, do you really understand why you shouldn't invest in crypto vs. someone stealing your money. That seems like a bit of a challenge to separate out those categories.

[00:45:52] Peter Lichtenberg: That's right. Our financial incapacity is really more guided by legal standards in your state, and so the financial impairment, lack of informed decision-making, inability to manage finance, that really has to be impacted by some kind of condition whether it's a neuro-cognitive condition, mental health condition, or substance abuse condition. It really has to be something that's causing it. It can't just be, as you're saying, yeah, people are just making a decision willy nilly. That doesn't make them financially incapacitated.

[00:46:27] Bob: The Wayne State University Institute of Gerontology offers some online tools for folks who might be interested in doing that kind of an assessment for themselves or someone they love.

[00:46:38] Peter Lichtenberg: People can go onto our website and as caregivers and explore our modules as well as take the family and friends questionnaire. It's OlderAdultNestEgg.com. And all of our tools and trainings are free of charge to users, whether they're professionals or lay people.

[00:46:59] Bob: And there's something else Peter pointed out to me that I think is really crucial. People's financial lives often get much, much more complicated in retirement when you're faced with all sorts of critical first-time decisions like which Medicare Part C plan to pick or when to begin those requirement minimum distributions or when to start taking Social Security. Complexity leads to confusion, and confusion also creates vulnerability.

[00:47:24] Peter Lichtenberg: It really is a big problem, and understanding that with aging, finances change. They become so different, and that's part of the dynamic too. You're not bringing in money, now you're decumulating or at least you're spending money that you'd saved, and, and so forth, so it's like there's an anxiety; do I have enough? If I'm going to live to 105, how is that going to work? There's new health insurance with Medicare and it's complicated and every year you could choose a new Part C provider. There's changes in your taxes. So there's a lot of new financial matters to attend to that already add to some of the confusion within which criminals come in and try to make it more clear for you.

[00:48:18] Bob: You could have been great with money your whole life, but then you encounter all these brand-new questions you're not prepared for.

[00:48:23] Peter Lichtenberg: That's exactly right. And brand-new systems that you have to interact with.

[00:48:28] Bob: Yeah, I mean putting money into a retirement account is easy. Getting out of it is actually really complicated.

[00:48:31] Peter Lichtenberg: Yes, exactly.

[00:48:34] Bob: No it's a, that's a really and fertile territory, and anytime, this is one of my principles just about consumer issues in general, any time there's complexity, you have opened the door for rip-offs.

[00:48:44] Peter Lichtenberg: I think that's true, and when we did our studies on validating our scale about financial decision-making, and we were asking people if they felt like they had been exploited. And, yeah, some people had. It was real clear they had gotten involved in a scam or something, or identity theft, but others, it really was confusion. It was what we called financial confusion. That what happened to them, the paperwork and so forth that they didn't really read and was complicated. And yeah, they were on the hook for something that they actually agreed to.

[00:49:21] Bob: Peter has also developed a pneumonic that can help people quickly identify scams.

[00:49:28] Peter Lichtenberg: Our PRESSURE pneumonic. Yeah, the P is for phone or other unsolicited contact by email, text, phone to start the scam. The R is requesting money by unusual means, gift card, wire transfers, Bitcoin, et cetera. The E is extracting personal information. They already had it in the Social Security number. The S is secrecy, the first S. And this is a huge, right, we said people feel they wish they had someone to talk to, but they're sworn to secrecy in these scams. The next S is for spamming, and that is you're going to get calls over and over again until you agree, or at least they're going to not give up easily. The U for urgency, get you to act before you get suspicious, and that, in this case, really was replaced by their getting Larry and Barbara to have a deep commitment to solving this problem and to Ryan. The next R is for Repetitive Requests to provide money or information, and here we saw, 30 times. It wasn't just the first 50,000, but the next was 70 thousand...5,000 in a shoebox. And the E is emotional. Scammers make you panic or get excited, so you act without really thinking it through and slowing down.

[00:51:01] Bob: And so PRESSURE. Just remember all those elements of a crime and it's a good pneumonic for remember, is PRESSURE. I like that a lot.

[00:51:08] Peter Lichtenberg: Thank you.

[00:51:10] Bob: Okay, so what, after people listen to this episode and after they hear you, what do you most want them to take away from it, and how do they protect themselves?

[00:51:19] Peter Lichtenberg: Be familiar with these red flags. Many of us have smartphones. Stop answering for numbers that aren't on your lists that you don't recognize. The thing with email, really be very careful about any email that's unsolicited that says you have to do something like click on a link here or there. But the biggest thing I think is bring down these barriers of privacy about money with somebody you trust. Somebody that will be your buddy. I actually talked to my own financial advisor about this. I said, "You don't get a little bit older, Joseph, can I call you if I have a question about something that just comes across me as I don't know maybe this is legit, maybe it's not." And he said, "Of course." And I also have a best friend who I would share this with too. But you have to have somebody outside of, of the family that where the emotions already might be tied into that would, you could talk things over with before you make any kinds of financial commitments or behaviors. I think those are the, the key things, and also know these red flags. Just know the process by which scammers are doing this. Understand that they're really good, and as human beings, we're not really that great at detecting deception. So we have to really approach this with humility. Yeah, oh I'd never do that. Well who knows? Under the right circumstances, the right vulnerability, at the right time, any of us could get involved in some serious scams.

[00:53:07] Bob: Anyone under the right circumstances can get involved in some serious scams. That's why we all have to tell these stories, listen to these stories, and look out for each other. For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:53:43] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you're not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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