Oh, okay, now I understand.

This latest reply states that Blacks and Teenagers make up the highest percentage of the unemployed. What is that supposed to mean in this discussion???? Can you find the date that teenagers and Blacks DID NOT top the ubemployment statistics. I'll give you a head start in your search, The Hispanic Population in this country at the time was under 5% and their unemployment rates were the highest, but that was a misleading figure as very few of the So. Cal, Itennnerant Farm Laborers were paid under the table and could not draw unemployment and were not counted, They either found a few days to a few weeks work or starved> The overwhelming majority of the California Farmers and the ones into Ariz and New Mex were treating them more like slaves, sometimes even working them for two weeks and when they asked for their pay to buy groceries, they were beaten and hauled out of camp with their families grabbing what meager belongings they could, but none would be the cash they were owed.

 I respect anyone who earns that respect and I could care less where he or she comes from as long as they give me 8 honest hours work for eight hours pay.

 I have detested Unions since long before I left the one I was in. I won't carry another man's load for him. If he can't do the work. he has no right to be in my immediate area. I won't correct his mistakes and he/she was never on the same jobsite as I was for very long. I would go out of my way to embarass of humiliate those kinds of workers. Too many had the concept "Well...You can't see it from my house!" or "It'll stay up there till we're lomg off the job" I got onto one of my men one day as I overheard him say those exact words. I told him to pull the Air Register out and put a piece of duct up that extended through the wall. He had cut the last joint of duct too short and was simply setting the Grill in the 4" double drywall and had the duch blowing towards it with about a 6 in gap. I asked if he thought the Register was getting 195 CFM of air flow. His reply was "There's 36 or something Supply Lines going into that auditorium, it'll all equal out. Why do you care? You despise the people at this church as much as I do."  I told him I did not despise the people,I despised their Doctrines, several were good people away from there, but really what this conversation was about was quality of work and doing what you are capable of and what we were all paid to do,our best. He began moving his tools to the next line and I asked what he was doing. "My Job" I said you need to fix this before you do anything else. About six people were watching by now and they all knew me. I told Danny the Apprentice working with him to take his tools and go down to Carl's crew and work and tell Carl to meet me in the Office Trailor. Rick turned and asked "Who's going to be my helper" I told him he did not need any help sweeping up after everybody and simply cleaning. I got one of those "I'm a mechanic and you can't put me on a broom while we have an apprentice on the job." I said,  No, what I can't do is make you work as somebody's Helper and I wouldn't anyway as it might be possible for his work habits to rub off. Then I added if he did not want to sweep to pack his tools in." I went to the trailer and talked with Carl for a minute and then first called the Union Hall to get things started in a backwards order and then called my Superintendent and told him I was firing him. We had some discussion over whether I could fire him or not. He told me to tell him to come to the shop the next day and he would reassign him. I knew the only one he had not been pushed onto so I just hung up and called the shop owner whose words were "Fire the SOB and if he rode up there in one of my trucks tell him to call somebody. I told Don He rode up in the Company truck I had to let him ride back. He replied back, "Not if you fire him with more than two hours to go on the clock and then asked what I would put on the paper so he could get the same thing typed to go with his check" I said Insubordination, Inferior Workmanship, and Gross Neglicence in Dirrecting an Apprentice in Propper work habits."

 I went back in the church and found him sitting on a stack of Drywall smoking, another "Forbidden Act" anywhere near the Sanctuary. I told him to get his tools and the gate guard would escort him off the property. There was some few words of ill intent expressed but I just told him he had been fired, gave him a copy and asked if he desired to sign the one I was to keep.He made a remark about wiping his buttwith it and see how I liked that. I just leaned down and looked under his eyelids and and told him if that were what he wished to do I would certainly put a Bic pen in his butt with it and sign the refussal" He didn't sign or wipe. I had three witnesses sign his refusal all of which got one of those "I'll remember this deals"

 I told him Sims had gone to get his partner, a Doberman/Airdale mix and tempermental. He told all of us we had not heard the last of all this and we hadn't. We heard about it at a Union Meeting which he left in a big Hissy, in a couple of the bars we went to and a few other places. What amazed me was the fact after hearing everyone else's same type situations, most from the Old Timers who had worked with my dad and I had heard about or met all my life. I asked why they put up with it and they told me they were amazed the Business Agent had not stopped me. They said I must have something on him. Nope, just a charming personality. At least it got a laugh. I just told them "Every one of you knew my dad, and in some ways I'm a lot like he is but thankfully not all that much, I simply demanded perfection and if not perfect than at least the man's best effort" I got several fake cheers and a few "that's how it should be".

 I had several mexicans, 4 to be exact and one of them was a female work for me at Ft Leonard Wood MO and they were some of the best workers, most dilligent, with attention to detail and workmanship and just all around good people to be around that I had worked with in years. American Workers for a very large part of them lack RESPECT and DISCIPLINE.               If I were in business today, I would hire the best workers I could get without regards to his Nationality or the color of his skin.  That is a major part of what built this country.

 Have a Great Fourth,   Tommy

The two groups that have the highest rates of unemployment in America are Blacks and teenagers. The people who worked the fields for a hundred years before the illegal immigrants came here were - Blacks and teenagers.  I know, I was one of those teenagers.

Cheap farm labor has created strawberry millionaires, berryaires, and made millionaires of other farmers, while also holding back agricultural development.

If farmers had to pay their employees a living wage the price of a head of lettuce might go up a nickle.

But never mind all that, America now has a population of over 307 million people. We need to lower the population rather than continue to allow more people to come here. Legal, illegal, skilled or unskilled we don't need anymore. 

There are organizations in Washington DC  (Negative Population Growth is one) who regularly inform congress about the need to lower population. Its not working because the rich people who run the country want cheap labor.  America is doomed. We, meaning we seniors, should be thankful that we got to see America before the decline started.

Hello Tommy:

Good return.

I just wanted to be sure you weren't picking on those who went through the process and live here legally.

As for L. L., sounds to me like she NEEDS to be shut down, but I don't know enough about it to get involved. You might.

I still maintain that coddling invaders is wrong, whatever the reason. There should still be some way to get the young adults, 15 and 1/2 up, involved in the agricultural work. It might require a restructuring of the workday but, again, that is an innovation and innovation is supposed to be the American way.

20 head of Red Angus, sounds like they could use some tending between 3p.m. and 5 or 6p.m. everyday.

My point is, if the kids can learn to work and get some sense of achievement from it early enough, and maybe even learn to think of the pay almost as an extra reward, then they might grow up to value themselves enough to become productive members of society. Farms or ranches yes, sawmills no, nurseries maybe, okay? Tobacco is only one of many crops and stock that are grown in this country. The jobs caring for living things are the most labor intensive, but can also be the most educational and rewarding. What better place for a young person just getting started out in life?

I agree that our kids need to serve apprenticeship's and learn trades. But they need a sense of their own worth in order to become interested. (L.A. Local 250, Pips Trades Journeyman, 30+ years until I got permanently broken and then got really jacked over). And, yes, GYPSY work is a young person's domain, but to have any kind of chance on those jobs you REALLY have to love the work. Granted, the pay is nice, but it almost is secondary. Those who are just in it for the money are dangerous.

As for Ramadan, whatever. I have no real comment on the practices of workers at their own job site. That's their business as long as it isn't criminal and doesn't negatively influence safety or their work product.

Just consider this scenario......I don't know of them or know them as I do not ask. The ones I stated I did know for sure were Legal, are in fact legal' That is maybe 35 to 45 at any one time. I know there are 45 to 50 working at the LL Ranch and would suppose they were all or nearly all Undocumented. my reasoning for this is personal knowledge from experience working Security at their yearly Nataional Amateur Motocross Finals each year. I would only accept Cash in advance as anyone else in our situation would do after only a couple of bad checks. Ernie Lynn, Loretta'sson who has been a good friend for over 40 years runs the ranch with his sisters and has stated when he has had too much to drink,daily, that they were the only ones (illegals) they could get for $2.50 an hour. That is not an illegal wage as Laundries, Restaurant Waitresses, and Farm Hands are exempt in almost all cases of Wage and Hour Laws or Minimum Wage. It is just simple fact that none of the White Boys which is about 90% of this county, won't work for those wages. It isn't enough to live on and buy dope both at the same time. That is not meant as a joke either.

 Loretta has housing, even for the temporary Summer Jobs with the Dude Ranch which does pay minimum wage but with a ton of work violation charges continually being filed, along with a Restaurant, three to five open at any time, and two small Grocery Stores for the Campers and the employees. She runs them Credit at inflated prices just like the old Company Stores and Housing she was brought up in back in Eastern Kentucky where her dad was really a Coal Miner of the Old School.

 There are another 40 to 50 at the Pallet Mill and there are 5 to 10 working on some other Large Farms and Saw Mills around the county. All totalled there are 200 to 250 who I suspect for good reason, (I know nearly every one of the employers) in a county with a total available workforce of maybe 3000,I'd have to check on that. That is about 6 to 7% and there is not a soul trying to take any of these jobs they hold.

 To the East of here in Warren and Cannon Counties and a few others where the Primary Work ids in the Nusery Business (shrubs and trees, not babies) they make up about 75% of the workforce of about 6,000 in a five county region. This is the largest Nursery Industry in this country.

 You may have seen the News Article about theUnion Vote two years ago at the Tyson Chicken Processing Plant in Shelbyville, TN where there are 1100 employees in the Union and they had a vote and voted to replace Labor Day with Ramadan. These are all legals.But if you want to see "Democracy" in action, just Google any combination of Shelbyville,TN/ Tyson Foods/Ramada/Labor Day/Somalies/Muslims.

Just Google a combination of any of those and read the news story. You'll love it.

 Mostly my "Rant" is pertaining to the work situations of Seasonal Employment practices. this ain't America as it was in the days of Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" with Tom Jobe and Family. Americans will no longer work those "Gypsy" lifestyle Jobs, with the exception of Pipefitters, Ironworkers, Sheet Metal Workers and Insulators who will follow Power Plant "Shutdowns" where several units at a particular plant are shut down for maintainence. They go around on the TVA line of Plants in a co-ordinated lineup. This is also co-ordinated with other Power Systems throughout the country as the entire country is on a connective Gridwork of Loadbearing Power Grids. These people make about 2 and a half times the average Union Wage and if they work continuosly they can retire intheir 50's if they manage their money well. Most work 12 hour days/7 days a week for 75 to 90 day stretches and make a years wages in that time, draw employment for 26 weeks and work again. The y co-ordinate the down time for themselves with Hunting Season or Fishing Season and stay quite satisfied from what I have seen. Good life after the kids are grown or before you are married. Not a good plan for a Family man.

 Other than these workers, the gypsy type work remains primarily Agricultural in nature and pays less than Minimum Wage.

 My advice to any young person just out of High School these days is to Learn a Craft or Trade instead of getting a college education and working as an Asst Manager at McDonalds. A man or woman with a usable and neede Craft will always have people looking for their expertise instead of you looking for a job.

     Have a good one, Tommy     Gotta go down to the creek with the little one for a while. It's 96 outside. I like the Air Conditioner, but maybe I'll sweat off a pound or two. Later, Tommy

 By the way, I live on a farm now, but other than about 20 head of Red Angus, It's all Hay and Woods.No Tabacco grown here. It's is the most Labor intensive job starting with the Hot Beds where the plants are started in January up to the Harvest in Sept or Oct and then the curing and then sales in Jan/Feb.  The only thing done by machinery is the planting and that is rare. Usually there are 4 to 6 people sitting on the back of a cultivator riding along planting them by hand one by one. It has to be hoed after it is too big for a cultivator. Blooms picked of by hand, Harvested by hand and all the time getting Nicotine Poisoning which absorbs through the skin. It can't be good for you. It is labor intensive, but in segmented spurts divided by lulls in activity. The ammount you grow is allotted by the Govt and most people who have an allotment, It's like Peanuts, you can only grow, other than for personal use, what the Govt allows. Jummy Carter never grew a Peanut in his life, he made money as a Peanut Allotment Broker. With Tobacco you may have a half acre of your own but buy up 8 or ten acres of allotment from 20 other people who have the lucky draw cards but don't want the bother of growing Tobacco.

It is getting too much Govt Regs on it now. Next thing you know people with Cancer will be suing Farmers instead of Tobacco Companies.

 Hope your Dad's Day was Great also.    Tommy

 I don't know Tommy. You started out with a rant about how foreign nationals are so deeply entrenched into our labor force that it would cost a small fortune in price increases if they were removed. But you still don't seem to know of many places where they are working or know any yourself. Mostly you've pointed out Immigrant communities and second or third generation American Citizens of foreign extraction. You weren't referring to these people in your rant were you? I don't really think so. So, if they are really so scarce why not enforce our laws and have them removed from our soil. They deserve no preferential treatment for breaking our laws.

As to the child labor laws, yes it would seem that they have gone too far. Do you know where the term "grease monkey" came from? Back near the dawn of the industrial age, Young children actually climbed about within the working machines and greased the gears as they turned. imagine getting caught up in one of those machines! That is the type of horror that prompted child labor laws. But yes they do seem to have gone too far, and now we are seeing the price!

I also got the impression you owned or operated a farm of some type, Tobacco? Isn't there some way the machinery can do its thing at a safe distance and time interval from the manual laborers? It might take some innovation but isn't that what America is all about?

You made a couple of other points. One was about ex-convicts working as tree trimmers and such. What's wrong with that? Maybe it will be enough to help them maintain their status as EX-convicts. Maybe they can learn something about horticulture and develop some real earning power.

And then there is the working wage issue. I can only speak for myself. I had a temporary job when I graduated high school. I then managed to become a full-time employee at the same place. AND I DID THIS BEFORE STARTING A FAMILY AND NEEDING A LIVING WAGE. For the most part, I think most of these whiners need to shut up, quit making babies, and get to work instead of being coddled. Drug abusers have made their own bed and I am running short on sympathy.

BY THE WAY, I HOPE YOU HAD A GOOD FATHER'S DAY!

I don't know many in this immediate area. I am sure there are areas of the US and even this state, West Tennessee for example, which is primarily agricultural where the numbers of outsiders are more prevalent. Nashville for instance has the largest Kursish Population outside of their homeland. There are over 45,000 Kurds in Davidson County, but they are all legal. Some of the towns in the area have had huge influxes of Somali Muslims. These too are all legals.

I got a quick lesson about ten years ago while working at Ft Leonard Wood, MO. Every month or so the INS with help of MP's and local and State Police would make a round-up of illegals working on construction at the post. Some were even living without electricity or water in some of the old duplexes and quads destined to be torn down. I came out of my apt one morning to see all thse cars and vans, mostly unmarked except fot the State cars. I thought it was a Drug Raid and got in my Bronco and started it up when this 6 ft Hispanic Woman in a three piece pant suit asked me where the hell I thought I was going. No ID, just the rude question. I asked her who the hell she was to ask and about the same time a State trooper who I had met several times at an amateur Flint Knapping Club (making flint arrowheads) ran over saying he knew me.. She made a remark about my attitude and I told her she still had not identified herself to me. She just told me she didn't have to and I let it go at that and talked with David. This was when I learned it was an INS roundup and I asked him if I looked like a ****. This was when I got the lesson that they are not all from Mexico. He said "No, but I can't tell a Canadian right off." This was the first time I ever realized they had to have a work visa also. All the Bricklayers on the job were Canadian and some had not renewed their visa.

 As I had noted, the ones who work around here that are more than likely undocumented are either at the Pallet Mill or on the LL Ranch and nobody from anywhere near here wants either of the jobs. Quite a few work in the Tree Trimming busuness but the only people whose jobs they are taking are the ex-cons as this seemed to be a requirement for one of those jobs before the Latinos showed up.

 there is a Summer job Program here and it benefits a good many young people, but only so many can get the jobs.

 the Child Labor Laws were put in place to protect our young from workplace abuse and Dangers, but I believe they went a little too far and it has created about two generations of a much lazier society for the most part. Some of the laws definately need to be looked at but with high Unemployment the first thing you will hear is the unfounded argument that they will take away jobs people need to support a family. I don't think that would be the case myself.     Tommy

 Found it.